Transcript

Bennie F. Johnson

Hello, and thank you for joining us for another special episode of AMA’s Marketing / And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In today’s episode, we’ll explore life through a marketing lens, delving into conversations with individuals that flourish at the intersection of marketing and the unexpected. We’ll introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not yet have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to know. Through our thought-provoking conversations, will unravel the challenges, triumphs, and pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing. Today, my special guest is John Cardone. John is currently the Vice President of Marketing and Communications at Carlow University. He is passionate about the importance of creating high-impact content marketing at higher education institutions, and he’s putting that into practice at Carlow. His leadership has helped create a vibrant brand that truly stands out.

In addition to guiding Carlow’s high level brand vision, he oversees implementation and integration of its brand story and content and digital marketing, social, corporate communications, and its web development. Throughout his career, John has been a passionate brand builder. He believes a brand is elevated through the emotional connections that it makes with its audiences across multiple touch points. He seeks to tell compelling, unforgettable stories that are grounded in strategy and always guided by the brand’s singular unassailable position in the marketplace. John, that’s a high bar, my friend. Welcome to the podcast.

John V. Cardone

I was going to say I should hang up now. I don’t know if I can live up to that. Yeah.

Bennie

Well, I think that’s perfect, man, because if we’re in marketing, if we’re not anything, we have to be ambitious and bullish about the future, right? No brand says, I just don’t want to die, right? This is not why we get up to market, right? So tell me a little bit, what, you know, we’re going to talk about higher education and your work at Carlow, but I’d love to know.

John

Absolutely. Yeah. That’s right. Amen. Amen. That’s right. That’s right.

Bennie

What brought John Cardone into marketing?

John

You know, it was by happens that I think I have been in the nonprofit space for probably more years than I choose to account for. But, you know, I, I looked at, I looked at the nonprofit space and I just saw that there was a plateau and, and I began to evaluate how can we really change the perception of who we are in the marketplace? How do we really create telling our brand and the impact that we’re having through storytelling? And then from that day on, it’s been 10 to 15 years of just pure marketing from, you know, again, like I said, non-for-profit space into the healthcare, out of healthcare, and now back into higher education. So it’s been an amazing journey.

Bennie

So when you think about higher education, it’s definitely in the moment. mean, it’s been the discussion of multiple conferences that we have on the marketing of higher ed. We’re going to talk about the broader sense at the beginning, which I think is a big topic that we could go on. But I’d love to get really specific to your work at Carlow. You’re working at a disruptor at a small university that’s making a big name for itself and a big impact. Talk a bit about your work at Carlow and thinking about this brand refresh.

John

Yeah, so it started from the first day that I walked on campus. And so when I was interviewing for Carlow, I really had no true understanding of higher education. But the thing that I did find from day one through the interview process to the day I accepted the position, it’s this true point of consistency that everybody at this university believed in the mission, believed in our values, and believed about getting our students across the finish line. And we have a deep, deep rooted heritage. And that’s through everything. And the way I looked at it is, boy, this is a marketer’s dream. Too many times we’re trying to find that baseline consistency. And I found it from day one when I walked on campus. And three years later, I still feel it every single day.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. So, you know, one of the things that you talked about was telling these compelling, unforgettable stories. You know, talk a bit about your campaign and the work about having a future that’s a campaign that’s devoted to the future of you. I love that phrase.

John

Yeah. Yeah, and it’s literalist form. I mean, it’s what it is. And so what we try to do is, you talked a little bit about higher education, right? And I mean, no disrespect. Every university does amazing work. But what I had to figure out is how do we redefine ourselves in this crowded space? Small budget, small teams, small university, and limited with resources. And so what we did is we went back to the beginning and we began to reintroduce the history of Carlow from those five to seven gutsy sisters that took the boat over to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and we stood on their shoulders now for 96 years. And it really was about telling that story over and over and reintroducing it. And then what we did was we then looked for those acts of mercy or those ethical leaders within our framework, whether it was faculty or staff, and really began to build a campaign. And so when students, sons and daughters of our own, when they looked at Carlow University, they could see themselves through this crowded space and I’ll kind of end here is that what I did want to avoid was higher education is very transactional based. And, you I call it bath and beyond, right? And I don’t mean disrespect, but what we tried to do is to say, let’s not always make it about the transactional, let’s talk about the transformational. And so that’s where all of these compelling stories came from.

Bennie

Right. Right. It’s really interesting that when we look at higher ed, you’re not just going after students. You’re trying to find the right fit for your students and their pathway. What’s some of the insights that you’ve been able to glean to discern in a group of 10 high school students who are really right for Carlowa?

John

That’s the challenge. Everybody’s going after them. And the beauty of us is, you know, we, when I stepped onto campus, I was used to having to replace 30,000 people a month in my nonprofit space. We don’t need to do that. And what we needed to do is just connect with a few. And if we can find those few, and get them connect. And so if those few could see who they are by what the information that we’re putting out there. And again, remember, we have a broad range of programs and services, but the idea is that they see themselves before they even step on our campus. And then when they step on our campus, they feel it. So again, the idea that we’re really focusing on is just finding the right students that we can connect with that are right for Carlow because, quite honestly, we don’t need everybody. We just need a few and we need the few right ones. And what we really try and talk about, and you’ll hear this throughout our campaign, is that we are trying to create ethical leaders that create a more just and merciful world. And, you know, of a hundred, that might be two. And those are the two that we’re really trying to connect with.

Bennie

Right. Wow, so when you think about the campaign, and we talked a little bit about this, who’s your focus group?

John

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great one. And the beauty of what we do is because we are small and we are nimble, we are always beta testing because one message doesn’t work all the time. And so our focus group, a lot of it is, know, adult learners is our alumni. We also do a lot of engaging our existing students to say, what brought you to Carlow? So you’ll see if you go to our website, we have an entire page about the student experience. And so what we try to do is connect with our existing students from on ground to online and say, what brought you into Carlow? And then how do we transform that story and get them connected to those prospective students out there as well as inspire them through the stories of our alumni. Because our alumni are doing some of the most amazing work out there. And so how do we use these inspirations of stories to really connect with all those different audiences? So it’s a great question. I hope I’m answering it. But it’s every day. I mean, it’s every day. And that’s the beauty of not having a big bureaucratic process that we have to go through. Yeah, it’s it’s beta is every single day because the world changes every single day as you know

Bennie

Well, it’s wonderful. Higher education is both in metaphor and practice about transformation. And one of the things I want to talk to you about is your role with the Carlow brand. Because of the last three years, you’ve made a transformation. So tell me a bit about what you felt about the brand when you first engaged with it and what that’s led to into the brand today.

John

Yeah, very well said. Yeah, and I always have to be respectful of those that came before me because right is that they knew what they at that time they thought they were doing the right thing. And so, you know, the question always was was enrollment was, you know, enrollment was right, somewhat flat coming out of COVID that, you know, we hear about the academic cliff and all those different things. And what I had said was our messaging was a thousand things to a thousand people and nobody really knew and understood who Carlow was. And I’ll go back to when I stepped on campus, I said, there’s an amazing story and there’s an amazing history. And what we wanted to do over the next one to two years is really reintroduce that brand of Carlow University way back when they first started and reintroduce it in more of a modern, authentic way now. And that’s where the success started. Again, we had great response. You know, the numbers we had our highest enrollment ever. We have our highest retention that we’ve had before. But by doing that, I think it really connected with people in a very, very different way. And it set us apart from other universities.

Bennie

Right. I love the kind of moment of respect of what we’re built on with brands, because you’re right. Decisions are made in the context of those moments. But I respect the fact that the marketplace has changed and the students have changed. Therefore, your brand must have some elasticity in order to be able to fit in. When you think about your space as really a kind of upstart in there. What advice do you have for other brands to challenge the norm? You’re in Pittsburgh, you’re in the shadows with some really big universities, my friend.

John

Yeah, I mean, we are turned left, turn right, and there are more. you know, and the thing that I always say is first, I don’t think it’s that complicated. And, know, this is about behavior. You know, I always say marketing is about behavior. And there are a lot of other brands that have figured this out in higher education. We seem to stay very, very isolated and insulated, I guess. But there are a lot of amazing brands out there that are really connecting with people. So I would say step out of ourselves and learn what other brands are doing. The second thing I would say is stay true and authentic to who you are. There are too many times right when enrollment may be down or things may not be going, we fall back on our proverbial sword and we forget the success that we’re having and we fall back on, need to have right, there’s a crisis. We need to do something very, very quickly and we don’t. People have to, you I always tell the story. I was fortunate enough that my wife asked me to marry me on our first date. Not many people get that opportunity. In higher education, we are trying to ask people to enroll to give money and everything on our first interaction with them. Let’s get the no and let’s court them for a little bit longer. So I’d say be patient and stick to the process. So being authentic and true to who you are, stick to the process and then I’d say data drives every decision.

Benie

Right. Wow. So what have you seen so far in terms of your kind of life connections with folks, moving from prospect to student to alum to being engaged? What has been the life cycle that you’ve seen?

John

When you know you’re doing it right, when you’re graduating your students and the day that they graduate, they talk about being ethical leaders to go out and create a more just and merciful world. That’s what you’re looking for. And so to take these students from freshmen all the way to the day that they graduate, whether it’s on ground or online, and for them to talk about our values and who we are as a university, and how this university has shaped them to be those ethical leaders. And the other thing that I think is so validating is that when you hear corporate partners, particularly in the healthcare space, say, can tell the difference of a Carlowisle nurse compared to another nurse.

That’s the validation. So we’ve got a great opportunity to just continue to on that and push that and get more of our graduates to get out into the workforce and do that amazing work that they’re doing.

Bennie

Yeah, so how do you see that kind of push for ethics and care, practice of care showing up in the majors? We talked about kind of nursing and the spaces that go into it, but it seems like it’s through all everything that’s happened at Carlowa.

John

Yeah, and that’s where I’ll go back to is that when I had said that one of the things when I came to our education, and you may have experienced this or not, is they said, there’s this thing called shared governance. And so some people may value that and some people may not value that. I’m like, wait, you have an infrastructure in place that we can work things through. And one of the things that I found out with our faculty is everything that we talk about, whether it’s our values, our history, our mission, is all embedded into our curriculum. And they teach that every single day. And so when I go out there and we market our brand, I know there’s a guarantee. We may not be the most shiniest on the hill, but we shine the brightest on the hill at Carlow. But what I will tell you is, that

When you step into our classroom, what our faculty is committed to and the curriculum they put forth to instill those values every single day and the commitment that they have every single day, it again is a marketer’s dream.

Bennie

Wow. So I’m going to telescope us back a bit. We’ve talked about the specific moment of Carlowisle. We’d love to get your thoughts on this moment for higher education, know, in higher education marketing. We have, we’re kind of in these, you know, best of time, worst of time moments where we’ve got students, we’ve got people coming in from all different spaces. We see some of the best marketing happening, but we’re all on the eve of looking at the numbers in which there may be game of musical chairs where there are not enough students for every spot. And then that pushes back on what we’ve called the enrollment cliff. So what advice do you have for universities in navigating this moment? We see some universities that are having an overabundance of applications and others that aren’t.

John

Sure. Yeah, and again, like you said, it is a very crowded space and everybody is competing for that same student. And as I shared earlier, I don’t think this is very difficult. And what I try and remind our admissions team every single day is don’t panic, it’s gonna be okay. But stay true to who we are as a university and use that authenticity because I think each university has an amazing story. Whether that they’re telling that story or not, I don’t know. And I can only go back to when I look at other universities or I even looked at Carlow, I did not know what they stood for, right? And what they wanted to accomplish. And therefore, how could we be communicating to whether it’s an on-ground student or a parent or a graduate?

It was very confusing. So I think simplifying your message, but also not casting such a wide net because I think we’re just throwing nets out there and trying to catch whatever’s in the net. I think really redefining the type of student that you want and not necessarily any student, but the student that has the propensity of staying with your university and connecting with your brand and connecting with who you are at the core, whether it’s, you know, whether it’s pride, whether it’s, the value that they bring, or again, at the end result, like we talk about creating more ethical leaders. so I, I’d say look deep inside, but also leverage, like I said earlier, what other marketers are doing out there, what other organizations are doing out there.

Bennie

Right. I think it’s really important that you hear it in your language, that the advice is to move beyond the transaction. This isn’t an acceptance, yes or no, a tuition payment, yes or no, a quarterly bill. This is really about coming into a lifelong learning community.

John

Right. It’s going to happen. I mean, I think that yes, you’re going to get your first bill. Yes, you’re going to graduate with, you know, maybe debt. At the end of the day, has it been worth it? Was that journey been worth it? And you’re absolutely right, is that it is a big pivotal shift for any university or any subscription based business to move away from that transactional because it’s always easy to go back in that direction. But what I can tell you is what I know is that our brand is resonating. We are seeing our highest enrollment that we’ve ever seen before. Our fundraising is up. Our alumni engagement is up. We are committed to sticking you know, as long as they’ll have me, you know, to this one, to this one authentic story, because what I think we fail to realize is that we think that everybody knows who we are and you know this better than anyone. How long does it take to get a brand’s name out there? And I keep saying, like, we’ve only been at this for really two and a half years. Not everybody in Pittsburgh in our respective region, let alone the surrounding states know who we are, right? They probably know more about Carlow University and Carlow Ireland than they do in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. So we have a lot of work to do, but to your point, how do we continue to do it and evolve and evolve in this very, very crowded space?

Bennie

Right. Well, I’m going to ask a bit of a fun question, but it’s all seriousness and brand. What’s your favorite piece of Carlowisle swag now?

Yeah, you because universities, I mean, you have a space in which to really bring your swag game to a higher level. I have a friend of mine and I’m going to name her university. I’m going to be nameless right now. So she’ll know who I’m talking to. And I remember sitting at the higher ed conference behind her and it was the most incredible college outfit that she had. I’m like, where do you get that? She’s like, I’m in charge of the swag. Of course I have. And it was this proud marketing moment that Yeah, I’m gonna have the best of the best. So I figured I’d ask you my friend, piece of swag are you most excited about?

John

Yeah, I mean, there’s probably two. Yeah, there’s probably two. So we are on the infancy stages of swag because, you know, we’re not a university that has big sports programs. you know, we got seven cool sisters that did some cool stuff, you know, they’re praying for me. So please keep praying for me. But you know what’s really interesting is our students are really committed to who we are and they put forth some really cool and interesting, some really interesting swag that has really resonated very, very well. I would say that. The second is we went through an entire campus brand refresh and we’ve reintroduced the shamrock, is right is kind of our identity. And we launched this new shamrock on the green. know, so other universities have their lions and their tigers that they rub. But one thing that we did do for our athletics team is we created a small little shamrock on the large shamrock on the green that they could touch with a Latin term before every single game. So they have the luck of the Sisters of Mercy, the luck of the Irish.

The luck of anybody will listen as they go out to their game. That’s probably my favorite. That may not be a piece of swag, but it’s an identity. Yeah. There you go. There you go.

Bennie

I like it, but it’s an artifact of the culture, right? And that’s what swag is in that space in there. I think some of my favorite gear from my university is the simplest piece. It’s like the basic t-shirt with the block letters that screams the university across time. there’s nothing else you need to do it. Yep. That’s all you need.

John

Yeah, there you go. Right, that’s right. It just says the year. That’s it. Absolutely. That’s right. That’s it.

Bennie

That’s all you need. So what are you looking forward to? What keeps you pumped up? I mean, you’ve been at the helm of this transformation and you said you’re continuing your best in yourself, but all the measures and metrics that we look at, enrollment, engagement, alumni space in there, what challenge is left for you and what keeps you pumped up?

John

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, we, still have a long way to go. mean, our, you know, and again, we’ve been very fortunate that we’ve gotten some really nice recognition. I think the continued build out of our website and what we can do to really increase that user experience. you know, we, we not, always say, do you watch Game of Thrones? We’re really trying to create this. We’re trying to create this website. This worlds of immersion as you’re emerging as you go into Carlow, you really experience. So we’re really excited about building that out. Of course, you know, AI, and we talked about AI for good. You know, Carloww no different from any other university. We use technology like everybody else, but it’s how we teach our students to use technology. I’m excited from the marketing side of it of what we can do with AI to really better inform us of decisions, right? Get real-time data, right? So from a marketing and communication standpoint, as we do our commercials, we explore with CTV, on all the social fronts, utilizing AI to analyze that information real-time and allow us to pivot our investments very, very quickly to respond or to respond to something that’s not working.

That’s really exciting. That’s really exciting for me. And then I think just continuing on the trajectory that we are of really increasing our brand more at a national and global level. Those are probably the three things that excite me the most.

Bennie

Now, thinking global, but acting locally, how do you go from little Carlowisle in Pittsburgh to a global enterprise? What goes through your mind?

John

Yeah. Yeah. And so we were talking a little bit earlier before you got on. And so we are truly telling the story that, you know, I always try and set the expectation. We are a global brand. So we came from, you know, we came from Carlow, Ireland. So last year we launched, we went to Ireland and we filmed our roots and we started from the first steps of the sister of mercy as they stepped off the land of Carlow and came to Pittsburgh and we documented that. And so it’s really positioning ourselves as that global university, but telling it through the lens of those sisters of Mercy on the journey that when they came to Pittsburgh the first day, you know, on a dark night, they got to work right away and started feeling the homeless or feeding the homeless and right away, know, Mercy Hospital from UPMC was born. So it’s really telling that broad history of who we are and then connecting people to that brand. And I can tell you it’s working. We’re seeing some growth in our international students and we’re also starting to see a lot of students outside our traditional space come to Carlow that normally would not.

Bennie

Right. Wow. Now, when you think about managing your brand experience, what are the distinctions between the Carlow in-person experience and Carlow as an online enterprise? Right.

John

It shouldn’t be a difference. And we work really hard at that. And again, when we talk about, know, again, whether you’re on ground, you know, when you’re on whether you’re on ground or online, you’re a Celtic for life. And so we talk a lot about how do we prepare those, you know, those online students that they have the same resources and they have the same experiences.

And it may be virtually, right? But it shouldn’t be any different. We do live in a very virtual world, right? And so you may not want to step on campus, but how do we create, you know, whether it’s our podcast, whether it’s our lunch and learns, whether it’s providing our providing our faculty the tools that they need. One of the things that we’ve done very differently in our website is, that we’ve begun this that you will know what it feels like to either step into a classroom, into an online class, by the way, because we’re interviewing our faculty, we’re creating that online experience. So we’re really trying to create it that there really is no difference, but they understand what it’s like to be in one of those classrooms. So it’s really exciting to build all of this out.

Bennie

So if you had any advice for a younger version of John coming at the higher ed, what would that advice be? Because you’re coming in with health care and nonprofit. What advice would you have for someone who’s just taking the reins on the higher ed brand journey?

John

Yeah, I mean, I’d say my biggest piece of advice is follow, you know, I mean, we’re all talking educators. So embrace the shared governance model. Do everything by committee. When we launched our website, and it is a website that is very different and very unique, we actually engaged 150 plus people in the launch of our website because we wanted them to be part of that journey. And then as we launched our new brand and our new commercial, I looked at what Apple did when they launched the new product. So we brought our entire community together to launch our first commercial. So the advice I would give is to utilize that shared governance model, bring as many people along this journey as you possibly can, and then don’t forget.

Don’t forget them along the way. Always stay connected because too many times I see it’s a one and done. But again, as you continue and you continue and continue, bring as many people along because the belief system with internal Carlow needs to be just as important as external because you know this, you can’t launch a brand or you can’t be part of a brand if your internal community is not bought into it and believes exactly who it is. You can’t go externally without.

Bennie

Right. It’s so true. We think about this, your first brand loyalist, your first brand champion, your first customer is your employee. Right. Think about how many brands that we know when the brand’s really seeing, we see it through the staff, the employees. You think about, yeah.

John

Absolutely. And that’s the hardest work, don’t you agree? That’s the hardest work. I say it’s easy to do this, but it’s hard to do this. We’ve created, for my team, a net promoter score for my internal marketing team. We have a net promoter score and we survey our internal community to see if we’re actually delivering on our brand promise.

Bennie

Right. Well, you know, to your point is so true because you do have some distance if it’s an external space. You can hide behind the web ad, you can hide behind the commercial or the banner. But when you’re working with your staff and your team, they see you every day. So you’ve got to consistently show up, right? Carlow has to be authentic in the quiet moments as well as the big loud moments, right? You’ve got to show up.

John

Absolutely. Yeah. Amen. Amen.

Bennie

So yes, but we talked about the swag that we have in there. That’s important. We talked about being authentic. That’s important in those spaces in there. So we’ll talk one more fun thing. Do you get any higher education trash talk? Is there a competitor for Carlow? I’m gonna have some fun with this. So many of our universities exist in these universes where they build a rivalry, but the rivalry actually… supports and engages everyone. Are there any other group? Are there seven other sisters who, you know?

John

Yeah, I mean, I could probably say among the Mercy schools, there’s probably a little bit of rivalry because we’re all looking for it. But I’m going to answer it very differently when people ask who’s our biggest competition, right? This is probably going to sound, you know, traditional answer is ourselves. I don’t I don’t feel again, every other university has its space out there.

You know, like I said, we’re in the, we’re in the throes of some giants out there with big budgets, but I think our biggest competition is ourselves and how we continue to focus on who we are and always evolve and remain true to who we are. I think is our, is what I always call our superpower. Because you feel it when you walk on this campus. If you watch our staff interviews or our staff profiles or our faculty interviews, they will tell you the day I walked on this campus, there was something special. And I think each one of us experienced it as well. So I’d say being a Catholic university, we’re probably not out there with a competitive lens that you may think that we are, because our values don’t talk about trash talking. But I think we are measured.

Bennie

It’s that it’s that it’s not a trash talk.

John

But I think that’s right. I think we’re measuring ourselves in our own silent way. yeah, think, but I’d say it’s probably internally where you probably see the most trust talking amongst other programs saying my programs performing better than your program. That’s probably where you see it the best.

Bennie

That’s fun. Well, we know that’s a good question when you smile on that one. To have fun in that space. So, you know, I’m going to ask for a mode of inspiration. Our friends at Higher Ed, I think we’re in a season that we need some inspiration. The work is hard. It’s rewarding. It’s important, the work that we’re doing. You know, we’re not selling caramel sugar water or widgets. Nothing against Caramel Sugar Water or Widgets. You know, as head of the American Marketing Association, I support all of those marketing efforts. But there’s something beautiful about identifying ways to build a better future. You know, we just left our collegiate conference and we had 2000 of the nation’s most dynamic, hardworking marketing students. And there was no way that you could leave out of there and not feel strong about the future.

John

Yeah, there you go.

Bennie

So I’d love for you to close us out today with some inspiration to both our student marketers who are listening, our practitioners who have been tried and true, the higher ed leaders, because we all can use a little bit of the future is dynamic and we can make it that way. So I.

John

Yeah, I mean, I wish I could tell you. So I was just on a lunch and learn with our alumni. It was called the greatest story ever told. And we were trying to connect back with our alumni about our marketing efforts and how we’re really focusing. We went from this little C Catholic university to a big C. know, every day is an inspiration for me. But I told the story that we launched our first commercial and I’ll summarize. We happened to be at a Laureate event and this woman came up to me at lunch and said, for the first time in I don’t know how many years, I saw Carlow for the first time and she was crying. And she said that was me back in I think it was 1973. That’s the Carlow I remember. So I was asked this same question on on that Lunch and Learn. And so when I shared that story and I couldn’t remember, in the chat box, she said, that was me during lunch. And so I look back and that validates that the work that we are doing every single day and you don’t know when that one person is going to be impacted by the work that you’re doing. And that was somebody I think from the class of 1973, but you’re also going back to the classes of 1951. And there are just so many of those inspirational stories. And so I guess I would say never forget where you came from and always make sure that as a newer marketer, lean in heavily to… the legacy and those many, shoulders that we all stood upon to get us there. I think that’s where you’re going to find your greatest inspiration. The results will come. I’m a firm believer that the results will come, the numbers will come and the impact will come. But those are truly the ones that I think that that I always rely on that set set the other stories apart for me.

Bennie

I think that’s a great way to end on that inspiration that ties us back to exploring the future, knowing who you authentically are, building on their brand promise. And as you said, being able to prove it and show it every day. That’s really John’s way. And that’s the Carlow way. So well, thank you for joining us for this episode. And thank you all for listening to this episode of AMAs Marketing / And.  Once again, I’m your host and a CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. We encourage you to explore more about this moment and opportunity in higher education marketing. We encourage you to check out John’s work with Carlow and we encourage you to follow the American Marketing Association. Thank you.