Transcript

Bennie F Johnson 

Hello, and thank you for joining us for this episode of AMA’s Marketing / And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we explore life through a marketing lens, delving into conversations of individuals that flourish at the intersection of marketing and the unexpected. We’ll introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not yet have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to know. Through our thought-provoking conversations, we’ll unravel the challenges, triumphs and pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing. 

Today is a really special episode and our guest is none other than Jon Cook. Jon serves as the global CEO of VML, a global agency that he’s been integral part of for the past 28 years. It’s under Jon’s leadership that the agency was recognized as the 2023 Network of the Year by the New York festivals. He has won many awards for the work that they’ve done. They’ve been recognized as top two on AdAge’s A-list and ranked seventh globally by the Cannes Lions International Festival for Creativity. They’ve also been named the Cannes Lion Entertainment Agency of the Year, three of the past six years. Before taking the helm of VMLY&R in 2018, Jon served as VML’s global CEO starting in 2011. It’s during this tenure with the original VML, the agency grew from 30 employees in Kansas City, Missouri to more than 3000 across six continents. What an impressive background and what a warm welcome I’d like to give you to our podcast, Jon. How are you doing, man?

Jon Cook

Hey, Bennie. I’m good. Thanks for having me.

Bennie 

It’s always fun when you read the bio and the space it and like I knew that you all had been winning like every year. But you know, I think it must be something in the Kansas City water. That you keep winning every year.

Jon 

It’s yeah, you got, you got right into a round the bat. You know how to get me fired up. But yeah, we as I was telling you, man, with the Chiefs, the Chiefs these last years, it’s been so quiet. And all of a sudden, this last decade, we started Chiefs started winning. VML started winning. There’s a correlation, I think. It’s been a good I want to roll with that. That’s for sure.

Bennie 

Yeah. I love the correlation, right? But we’re going to jump into, you know, it’s almost been a year since the big merger that brought all of these agency parts together. Talk about how you’re feeling about 12 months in, the kind of major move to the new look global VML.

Jon

Yeah, thanks for asking. It’s good because it’s a perfect time to ask because it’s been a reflective month for me, last couple months, because we’re, well, just for context, we announced VML, which is a merger of VML, Y&R, and Wonderman Thompson. We took all those letters and all those long words, it just became VML. That was, we announced it in mid-October last year, but we then went live with it on January 1st.

Bennie

Right.

Jon 

So right now, about a year ago, was when we hadn’t gone live with VML, but we’d announced it to the world. We were deep, deep in merger activity and so much. It’s a big company and they had two very successful companies coming together. So if you had seen my Outlook calendar literally this week, one year ago, I looked at it and about had, you know, like just fainted because it was all merger of this and merger of that. But, you know, this year it’s like all working on clients, new business, client stuff. It’s just like what I love to do.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right.

Jon 

Not that I don’t love merging, but now we’ve come a long way in a year. It’s been good. I’m a little tired because it’s been a long year putting that big thing to put together, but it’s really worked out well. It’s a mixture of tired from a long year, but really proud of a lot of success and a lot of things coming together. It’s a weird mixture. Needless to say, I’m ready for a holiday break.

Bennie 

You know, the holiday break, I think we all could use a bit of that after the year and bringing it together. You know, when you think about the holiday break, what gives you, I’m always looking for the creative insight. What gives you that restorative space as you get ready to think around 2025 and we close out this year? What are you looking forward to kind of restore Jon Cook?

Jon

It’s interesting. It’s going to be not sexy answer, but I find a lot of future energy in nostalgic feelings. And I’ll explain that. I don’t know if you had this, I like, for example, I just, just before this, I was booking a restaurant reservation at this quiet little Italian place. Cause all three of my grown daughters who live outside camp, they’re all coming back. My wife and the three of them were going to this place that we would have gone when they were all like five, seven and nine. 

Bennie 

Mmm, okay.

Jon 

And I get very excited about the future and drive energy off kind of as big as the world’s gotten and as complicated as it can all be in this crazy industry. I like just simplifying back to things that remind me of when we were just, you know, me and Lisa and three little kids. 

Bennie

Right.

Jon 

And like everybody just loved this really simple Italian dinner at this restaurant. So everybody’s like, what about this fancy place? What about this? I’m like, no, no, no, we’re going back old school.

Bennie

We’re going back. I love it.

Jon 

This may be little too personal, but honestly, it’s the kind of going back to old school, simple, nostalgic stuff in my life gives me massive energy for the huge energy needed for the big future. So that’s how I’ll restore. I’ll do a lot of that over the break. Traditions, nostalgia, simple, you know, that’s where I’ll be.

Bennie

I love it and this probably wasn’t in your brand briefing, but I see a real arc in that in the merger conversation. You started off with the three simple letters of VML and to have all of the letters you said before kind of have all the work come in there and then to bring it right back.

Jon 

Yeah, great. Great observation. I like that. That’s good. I think it’s true. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it really is. It’s so true. It’s kind of like VML is nostalgic to me because it’s where I started my career. But it’s also like a microcosm. It’s also the total future of my career and so many others and rebirthing that a whole new way. So yeah, you said it. I like the juxtaposition of that, if you will.

Bennie 

Yeah, it’s really kind of interesting. I love the kind of intimacy of the local proximity juxtaposed for you. And when you really look at it, you all are global with a big G, big L, big O, B, A, L, you know, A, L, right? Really impressive in the fact that you’re in about, you know, 28,000 employees, 60 markets.

Jon 

Yeah.

Bennie 

How do you find that balance between the power of global scale, but that unique intimacy of kind of a local experience?

Jon 

It has been cool. I mean, I have a very unique geography to my life, which is maybe the most global advertising agency there is or ever has been in some ways, some measurements. But I live in the city you’d least expect that to emanate from in Kansas City, which is just right in the middle of the US. Hopefully, everybody listening has been there. But if you haven’t, we’re that spot right in the middle that you fly over when you go from LA to New York. But you know it, Kansas City. I think, no, it’s a cool juxtaposition. I think it keeps me, I think I get a really good perspective out of it because…

Bennie 

Right. Right, right.

Jon

You know, I always had this little weird, this is going to sound really weird, this weird exercise I do in my mind. When I travel internationally, I come back to the US. Most people just fly back to New York or LA or Chicago on a direct flight. There is no situation that I don’t have one extra flight when I come back to the US because you can’t go out of Kansas City internationally. That kind of sucks because you’re at the end of a long trip and you go, man, I still got the Kansas City hop from New York or whatever. All fine. What I do is I treat myself in that extra flight to a little reflection.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Jon 

I always say, let’s use that time to just reflect on, if I’m going to Kansas City, what’s cool about that? And just to kind of like remind myself that it’s kind of a blessing to be able to live where you grew up. And it’s just something I forced myself to do because the trips are so global or so big. And I just say, that last leg, I’m gonna use it for a little reflection. That’s how I kind of treat myself for it and keep myself grounded on it. 

Bennie

Mmm.

Bennie 

Wow.

Jon 

But I also think not to over-answer your question, but I’ve always felt like being from Kansas City, which is not some weird superpower and there’s nothing magical about Kansas City by any means, great city, but it’s just a city. But I do think it’s helped me in my career have a lot of respect for every market in the world and how they’re perceived because there’s a lot of markets as part of VML or any big global ad agency that always feel, not at VML I hope, but just in the cliche that markets that don’t feel like they get the shine of New York or Sao Paulo or London.

Bennie 

Yeah. Right, right.

Jon 

And you’re in a, I always have like a lot of respect for markets feeling forgotten or feeling like you don’t know them or feeling like there’s there’s a, a stereotype about them. Because I get those all the time by Kansas City. Must be small town. You must not know as much. You must be walking down the yellow brick road with Dorothy and Toto. You know, everybody’s got their version of those things for every city. That’s not the big ones. So I try to try to really use that perspective to have empathy for every, every market and what they’re feeling.

Bennie

I really love that because, know, creativity, innovation, whether it’s marketing, design, creativity, problem solving, really happens everywhere. It happens anywhere. And that’s kind of, you know, really the space I think about some of the incredible creative work that’s going on across all types of business and entrepreneurship in like Detroit in spaces. And Detroit’s had a huge history of engineering innovation and other space in there that people kind of forget about.

Jon 

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Great example. Yeah.

Bennie 

And then you look at when the work is happening or I look at the work happening in Baltimore in spaces where, know, exactly.

Jon 

Yeah, that’s a really good example is exactly what I mean.

Bennie

I love that as well. Then, you know, applying that to the global space, you know, one of the things that I’ve always been a fan of the work that you all do is around this time of year, you put together your future 100 of kind of the, the top trends, you know, looking into the space in there. And I kind of love those moments because…

Jon

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bennie 

The trends can emerge anywhere and see things go right. When you think about that list, for last year, you may not remember all 100. I’m not putting you on a spot to remember all 100, because I don’t. anything when you first read it that jumps out and surprises you, it’s like, is that really a trend? And then you look nine months in, and you’re like, my goodness, it’s happening.

Jon

No, I think we got it pretty good. think we push ourselves to be very specific and not overly general. It’s not like AI is coming or this will be the year of mobile phones, like a couple years ago, 20 years ago. It’s like, is the actual insight? We all get AI’s coming. It’s here. It’s big last year or the years before, but especially coming this year. What’s that extra level of insight? So nothing surprised me, I think. But you make a good point. think we always try to go back and…

Bennie 

Right. Right here.

Jon 

I like when other people do this, which is go back and kind of evaluate where you were on your predictions and hold yourself accountable. Use that. We don’t beat ourselves up if we had one wrong or we got, don’t celebrate too much if we got one really right, but we do use to shape the next thing. And usually the outcome of that is like, Hey, we had this one kind of right, but a little more specific. Let’s give this one a little more edge. That was a little soft. Let’s, come a little harder with, with kind of what our viewpoint is on something. That’s, that’s how we use it to push ourselves, but we we got good stuff coming. We’re going to launch that here in January.

Bennie 

Right.

Jon 

I really like where that’s going. won’t get into it on this podcast exactly. That’s a whole other thing. But I think getting into kind of the just breaking down AI in so many cool ways, like in ways that are really specific and not obvious and take some stances on them, I’m looking forward to it.

Bennie 

Well, sign me and the AMA up. We’ll see you in January. We’ll come to New York.

Jon 

You got it, yeah. Yeah, and we’ll have a bit, yeah, we’ll have that event. You know, thanks for mentioning it, because I think it would be great to have you and we’ll get that information out there to your group.

Bennie 

I’d love to be there as well. When we talk about this mix, now when you started, you weren’t really thinking about 60 markets, but now you have to. Think about that kind of arc. What’s changed in how you advise clients today versus 30 years ago?

Jon 

Yeah, I mean probably lots of things but as it relates to your point of geography, I mean the obvious one is just how, this may be too obvious but it comes up all the time. You’d be surprised, which is this human nature of thinking that things that you put out in the world are bound to their geography. And we’re all obviously smart enough to know that the internet is everywhere, but it’s amazing anyway, and we’re guilty of it. Everybody’s guilty of you think about you just sort of forget and think something’s contained.

Bennie 

Right. Right, right.

Jon 

We’ve had some stuff in this last year that, know, that, you know, trying to think of an example, but something would catch fire in a good way and kind of go around the world a little bit more. But it was challenges too like, we’ll put something out that was, you know, was, insensitive in a market and it’s like, accidentally, of course. But if that happens, then you’re like, thank God that just happened in, you know, Curaçao or something, making that up. Then you’re like, suddenly no, Curaçao’s the world. 

Bennie 

No, right. It is the world.

Jon

It is, but it happens on the positive too. Good things that you do or, I’m not going to the negative, which is you do something insensitive or an error, but that it happens more often and equally, equally or more often on the good side too, which is cool about with, you asked about talking with clients, which is, if we do this here, we can make it really make a ripple with that brand around the world. We’ve been working with Wendy’s for a long time and as they’ve gotten more and more international.

It’s been really cool to see the swagger and the personality of Wendy. 

Bennie

Yes. Yes.

Jon

That we’ve established in the U.S. start to take on different forms in the UK, in India, you know, and it’s got a little different swagger to it, but it’s like, okay, this is working because the world is picking up on what we did in the U.S. I like that, you know.

Bennie

Right, right. I mean, you’re speaking to some of my favorite brand moments, my favorite kind of break the universe spaces in there, like the snark and swag of Wendy. 

Jon 

Mmm. Yeah, snark, yes, snark, word.

Bennie

You know, it becomes a textbook. You know, how do you respond in today’s world where something going viral or something exploding or accelerating creates an embarrassment of riches? Where your marketing impact gets ahead of the actual supply chain and the business. How are you able to coach clients in that way? when it’s like you created more demand that can possibly be understood and sold to. Now what John?

Jon

It’s a great, yeah, it’s like Wendy. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, we should plan on these things. Like if we, if we’re as good as we think we are, both our brands and as an agency, we should plan on, we should be to do better at planning on the demand being so hard. Yeah, it happens with Wendy’s. mean, it just was like, we did this whole, you know, kind of sponge, but you know, SpongeBob, Krabby Patty burger. It just took off culturally and then took off in business. And honestly, I mean, it, it, it create a little bit of a meat- meat shortage there because it was just way more proper than we all thought.

Bennie 

Yes.

Jon 

It’s a good problem to have and it was quickly solved by Wendy’s, it is hard because can’t, it is real investments you have to make in product and sometimes you just can’t gauge the cultural phenomenon like this Krabby Patty work with Wendy’s. We knew it would be big, knew it would be great, but between this Krabby Patty burger intrigue and this pineapple, you know, this creamsicle frosty that was with it, it was like it just took off. So yeah.

Bennie 

Right. It just took off. And you know what I love about it is we all can do the math. We’re like, ok, if I add this moment, I take this insight at this time, good things should happen. But we never know. We never can count the exponential impact that you have. You know, when when you think about, you know, relationships, you started with clients and you continue with clients. Right. And one thing that comes through is the relationships. as you as you work with know, clients over time, how have you found their client side, you know, desire to build a strong relationship with the agency? I remember there used to be a time where, you know, people would change agencies out every other week, right?

Jon  

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Bennie 

And now we see these long, you know, brand sensitive mission oriented impact longer term relationships. How have you been able to manage that those relationships with your with your partners?

Jon 

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, first of all, you make a great point. The stakes of marketing as they relate to the shaping of your company and the brand and the positions you might take in this world, the stakes and the power to take a bigger position have gotten so much bigger. So I think that’s exciting and scary. But to your question, it creates deeper relationships with clients or can separate you and a client really quickly if you don’t talk about those things in the right way. I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned with, you know, partners at the brands, client partners.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jon 

Anytime you have fear of asking something candidly or something that is very real, you have a choice to make with that good client partner and that’s hold it back or say what’s on your mind. And I think we can get tricked into, because of the stakes of agency-related client relationships, get tricked into not… You can get tricked into holding back real conversation because of fear of damaging a relationship. 

I think I have to put a percentage on it, but eight, nine times out of ten, that not only was it right to be as candid, and I’m stating the obvious and you have to be candid, but I mean really push yourself to say that I’ve just found a lot of success in relationships and trust in relationships by saying exactly what’s on my brain.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jon

And the worst thing that happens usually is that if you have a good relationship is somebody at least understands where you’re coming from and appreciates that. And that may be a disagreement, maybe would be more epic, but the trust is there. And I would expect the same from client partners. That’s been a really good progression in my own career and hopefully coaching others. Just ask, just say something. If something’s bugging you, don’t hold it back. And I can’t imagine a client partner that I have that would want me to.

Bennie 

Yeah, you know, I can say from personal experience and I won’t name the guilty spaces in there. There’s nothing like having you don’t want to have the converse, which is feeling like you’ve had a partner who knew something was off, who knew something is in there and just continue to take your money. 

Jon 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Bennie

Right. Like you knew we were broken and you saw this and but you continue to take our money while we try to figure it out.

Jon 

Yeah, that’s exactly. I think it even happens on littler, I quote littler things. Like for example, this is going to sound like the littlest thing in the world, but let’s say you have some of the agency side that’s really just killing it, but it’s struggling with something and is really stressed about working on a client. know, the old days you might’ve just not said anything to the client about that. They’re paying us, it’s a machine we can march on. I think I’ve had just a lot of situations where if you say to a client, you know, a friend, a partner at a client, you say, hey, this is kind of weird to a really senior person, but would you mind saying something to, let’s make up the name, Susan. Susan, you don’t know her. She’s 25, she’s killing it, but she’s really stressed. I don’t want to throw anybody in the bus, but if you would, if you’d sent her a note and you said this, keep me out of it. And I hate to ask, because I know you’re the CEO of the company, you’re the CMO and you haven’t met Susan. 

I don’t know anybody who wouldn’t go, Jon, just thank you for saying this and I’d be happy to do that. But people hold back from asking for that because they think it’s gonna be annoying to that CMO to do that. But if I was a CMO, I’d want people saying that to me all the time, you know, because you wanna be a good partner. So it’s a very, very small example, but it’s the kind of thing we gotta communicate about.

Because, by the way, I have a 25-year-old daughter that works in advertising, and it’s a whole other topic, but seeing the world through her eyes and how much it means to her if a client says thank you to her, and she’s on the low end of the spectrum in terms of the levels, if you will, and I see it through her eyes of the meaningfulness of a client compliment that may seem like just the words thank you. To her, that’s a frameable moment in her career, and to somebody else, it’s just two words in an email.

Bennie

Right. It really is. And it speaks to that ladder and that connection. So I’m going to ask you a bit about leadership through mentorship, right, and this kind of connection. And it’s interesting that your daughter is in the profession. So I know you are not Jon Cook at home. You’re just dad. 

Jon 

Absolutely, yeah.

Bennie

So you’re not the CEO of VML at home. I understand that. That’s right there.

Jon 

Not even close.

Bennie 

But when you think about your daughter and you think about the staff that you have, what’s your approach to mentorship as a function of your leadership?

Jon 

I’m huge on, I got probably a lot of thoughts on this, but a couple quick ones. I think one is I’m big on leadership by example. Now maybe a lot of people are, but I purposely try to do that. I do really think about doing things that can be repeated by others, those that care enough to watch and listen and ask. So I do have this belief that maybe that style’s not for everybody because leadership by example, it doesn’t get forced upon people, it’s only available.

It’s readily available and it’s free and it’s open for everybody to see and train from. But it’s also, you have to opt into it. So I’ve always kind of liked that. You the mentee, the one being mentored. Because I think that kind of separates the herd a little bit on the people that really want to learn and watch things. That’s one thing. I have a whole, I’ve talked about it before and sometimes publicly, this thing I really believe in with, especially with younger people, my kids, but other people in this industry.

Bennie 

Right. Mm-hmm.

Jon

And it’s really simple. It’s just called show up and follow up. And it is as simple as that. is like before you get to be in the superstar, this, that, the other, just do this show up and follow up. And by show up, it can be the easiest thing in the world. Like when you’re young in your career, just like literally show up, like be there, like be in the office. If it’s hybrid and you have the choice, be there. 

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Be there.

Jon

You know, if it’s, if it’s follow up and you’re young in your career, just be the one who volunteers, to take the conference report.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jon

But as you go a couple years into your career, get 20 years into The gravity of your role gets bigger. The way you can implement that particular advice gets bigger because show up no longer means just be there in person. Show up means when an ex-person shows up, there’s impact and there’s excitement and there’s a guarantee that something’s gonna be good. Follow up with 20 years in your career means this person’s there, stuff’s gonna happen. So I like that particular advice and it’s worked for myself.

It can be written off as too basic or too simple or too common sense. That’d be a mistake because it’s powerful, done right.

Bennie

But I think it’s so important that these are these critical fundamentals for a reason. And they’re good if you build it in their habit forming, they become good generative habits for you. And how you show up at the big stage or the small stage where nobody’s watching is really, important to that space.

Jon 

Yeah, that’s a great point about kind of the leadership by example, which I really, you know, I just really think, I don’t think about it in a way to manufacture, I just think about it like that some of the moments you’re training or teaching the most by leadership by example is the ones that aren’t on the big stage. They’re the ways you handle preparing for something or following up on something and yeah, totally agree with you on that.

Bennie 

So to follow up, I’m still enamored by the global scope and scale. And when I think about just these stories of leadership and mentorship, so how has it been to combine the work culture of so many spaces and teams? Especially coming off the heels of a merger, you’ve got, by definition, different cultures. What’s been your kind of takeaway, especially in this past year, of how to kind of bring those those positive things together?

Jon 

Yeah, yeah, I’ve learned a lot. There’s things that are certainly hard about it, but it’s been really good. I think if I ever have to write a book about it or talk about it, because I’ve done a couple different mergers as part of VML through the years and try to build on a couple of those to make sure you’re always doing it. And culture is always the one that I’m thinking about the most, right up there with, how do we just be amazing for our clients because they’re hand in hand.

Bennie

Right.

Jon 

But, I think in a merger sometimes the mathematics are to take thing A from one company think B for another company and to either pick one or to blend them together into something new it’s like well, you don’t have to do those couldn’t you just come together and invent a new way that you have ownership of together. But there’s times and places where one of the cultures has something that’s really advanced in a particular element and… 

Bennie 

Right.

Jon 

It’s the giving and the of the compassion of saying, hey, let’s take, let’s kind of lean to the way you were doing this in your company or in this company. And I think managing the give and take of that, the compromise that comes with it, the grace, the empathy, co-creation is a huge builder. Ownership, new ownership of things, as in taking ownership of something new is a huge enabler.

Bennie

Right. Right. Right.

Jon 

And then I could go on and on about all that, think about it all the time. But one thing that’s really been cool lately in VML is, you know, about nine months, ten months into our merger, it’s become clear that with leadership and key positions that we did a really good job early on of identifying who was leading what from each company. And because we needed just one of those things. And finally, that took a lot of work last year. We’re now at the maturity level in VML where we can and we need new people to come in because

Bennie 

Right.

Jon 

It would have been hard eight months ago if you have two people looking at a position from two different companies to say, you know, neither of you are doing this job, we’re hiring a new person. We weren’t ready for that. Now we’ve together built a great culture of VML that comes from Wenderman Thompson, comes from VMLY &R. It’s the perfect time for new people to come in and put a whole new stamp on it. We weren’t ready for that a year ago. Now we absolutely are. And it’s cool to see that spice come in. Not only because you see new spice come into the mix.

Bennie

Right.

Jon 

But it’s kind of a proof point that, you know what, we built a company that somebody wants to come to, and that is, we come to company that’s mature enough to handle new thought. Not something people should take for granted, you know, the chemicals were too new a year ago to add new chemicals to it.

Bennie 

Right. And to your point, you know, sometimes the challenge is you’ve been successful. Going back to our team analogy, right? We’re that team that wins 12 games every year. You’ve been successful, but you haven’t risen to the level of a championship yet. And how do you kind of manage that? Like, okay, yes, we’ve been successful. That is true. But there’s more.

Jon 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Gotta keep pushing. Yeah, that’s where we are right now. That’s for sure.

BREAK

Bennie

I’m curious because the agency landscape has changed so much in the last, I’m just gonna say five years, right? Not to mention last 20 or 10, but really the last five years. What do you wish clients knew to ask you for or to engage you with?

Jon 

I love that question. So much that I have to think about that for a second. Yeah, no, first of all, I agree it’s changed. And it’s like, there’s so many things you wish that you could be known. to ask us for, think there’s so many things there. I think one of them is just that agencies usually have, I’m just generalizing, but agencies usually have way more capability than they were hired for. 

Bennie 

Right, right.

Jon 

And every agency then, wants to do more, I guess you can imagine agency. I would say almost every agency, mathematically has more that they do and do well than they were probably hired for, which is totally natural. So there’s exceptions to this. And having good honest conversations about that will help a couple things. One, it stops the agency from having the feeling the need to sell and to be salesy to clients just to grow their business.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jon 

And because no agency people aren’t trying to be salespeople. Nobody wants to go be a salesperson. You just want to do great work. I think for clients, a lot of times what they need is sitting right there at the agencies they have. And to give, do you ask what that would want? Give your agency, that’s such a generalized statement, but I would say sometimes maybe give that agent, and many do by the way, but give the agency that knows your brand, loves you, has worked so hard.

Ask them if they do a particular thing. I think about it with some of our brands. VML is one of the best loyalty agencies on the planet. And we do massive loyalty programs for things like IKEA and Ford and Lego and going on, but because VML is in the shape of a big ad agency, I think somebody must assume that they have to go to a, quote, loyalty company. Not trying to be salesy right now. 

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Jon 

But so inside of VML you got, my gosh, this is one of the best capabilities in the world. The clients that use us for that know that. But I’m sure a lot of clients would say, well, you’re my quote ad agency. There’s no way you could be this. My thing is give your agency a chance. And if they’re not good at it, that’s fine. But I’ll bet sitting in some of the agencies are world class capabilities, especially big good agencies like we are. And there’s a lot of them. 

There’s more social media and success and achievement and world classness in VML than a lot of just social media agencies, but because it’s not called a social media agency, but just because of our scale, like, we’re the best in the world in that. And I’m rattling off examples, I’m probably sounding salesy, I love clients to give their agencies a chance to do that. And then agencies then could stop going, I’m gonna send you a little thing about our social media capability. You know, it’s like, nobody needs that.

Bennie 

You’re right, because you end up with this literal menu of things that I’m buying as a client, right? Whether or not I know that this right recipe of things makes sense. And what I may need is a loyalty program, but if I’m in an industry and I’ve never had a loyalty program, why would I know to buy that, right? Why would I know to engage that? But I think approaching it, as you said, from more of the give the agency a chance to be a problem solver with you.

Jon

Yeah, and I think it’s on the, if then given that chance, it’s 100% on the agency then to deliver something that’s more than just one plus one, advertising plus loyalty. The agency, if we have a world-class loyalty capability, that’s not good enough for VML. We have to have loyalty, the best in the world, plus it has to be more connected to the advertising for our proposition to be as true as I’d want it. That’s why I want somebody to think about us that way, because we can’t just be as good as everybody else. We have to be as good and make it better connected.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Jon 

That’s on the agency. The larger agencies that have multiple capabilities, you can’t just be great at it. You have to be great in how it connects. And that’s 100% on the agency. But client partners, if they do, let your agency do that because they’re probably really good at it.

Bennie 

So when we think about this, that the work that we do all comes down to, as a good friend and mentor always says to me, it all comes down to the humans. And so you think about it, and VML is made up of creative and talented folks, by definition, as most agencies are. What do you do to make VML a place of choice that people want to spend a portion, if not all of their career kind of connected to you. What are you doing to be a space where talent can grow and thrive?

Jon 

Yeah, I mean, everything you expect about career management, all those things, we’re trying to be great at all those things and to be a great employer. So could go on and on about that, saying, think we’re good at those things. I think though, to a specific point to your question is, I like to look at what truly makes us different and say, can our differences truly matter to our employees? Because for example, let’s take one difference in VML and other agencies, and that would be size and globality and multiple capabilities.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jon 

There’s other agencies that have that, but there’s very few that have as much as we have in as many places we have it. So that’s just a fact. A fact is just a fact. How do you make a fact a benefit? And how do you make it to answer your question in a reason that somebody would say? So it means nothing to an employee of VML that we have all that, if they don’t get to experience it, grow their career with it, have more perspective because of it. So we have to unpack VML to make it not just that fact just be something for our clients, but to make that fact available for people to progress around.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right, right. Right.

Jon 

So, you know, if we make VML bigger, but you feel smaller, we’ve done something wrong. If we make VML multi-lingual, multi-country, multi-international, and you never see it, it doesn’t matter. And so, and I’d say for a lot of people, VML, that’s going well. It’s a lean in. You know, we had an annual meeting about a month ago, and one of the things I said was, VML is this giant… Imagine the best buffet you could ever go to. Like the most immaculate Bellagio buffet in Vegas or something in Shangri-La in Asia. 

Bennie

Right. Right.

Jon 

Like, if that’s what we are, why would you just go there and make yourself a ham sandwich? You’re leaving yourself short. But it’s the agency’s job to have everything, have the best amazing food in that buffet.

Bennie

Right. Right, right.

Jon

And it’s on everybody in the company to not just make themselves a ham sandwich but lean in and that’s a partnership between us. It will work for most people but there will be the occasional employee that has no interest in leaning into any of it. We’re just probably not right for that and there’ll be times in VML where we’re not doing a great job of making it available and that’s too bad but most times those two things connect. We’ve got a good situation.

Bennie 

So here’s a question I’m asking, and you don’t have to give away the secret sauce, but I’m always interested with your brand having so much square footage in terms of the clients you do and the work you do. What partnerships are you most excited about? When does the X come in? When it’s VML times this brand times that brand?

Jon 

Yeah, you mean like within our client partnerships? Yeah.

Bennie

Yeah, yeah, because you’ve got some great you’ve got some great partners that I’m like, I know there has to be someone sitting there going, what if we put this one with that one?

Jon 

yeah, yeah, that’s a good, well, mean, one of my favorite clients, think one of the favorite clients in all VML right now, and it’s a big WPP client as well, so lots of WPP agencies, but VML specifically, we have Coca-Cola is one of our largest clients. One of our best clients, and first of all, I always tell people, we cannot, like, when you’re having a rough day, or you think this industry is just complicated, it’s like, don’t lose sight of the fact that when you sat, we all sat around wanting to be in advertising.

Bennie

Right. Right.

Jon 

The brands you said you wanted to work on or you made up and your hypotheticals were things like Coca-Cola. And now here we are working on it. So let’s never lose sight of that. The day that that doesn’t sound magical to someone, we’re probably in the wrong business. Because we’re working with freaking Coca-Cola around the world and making stories about this. It’s like, wait, that’s what we dreamed of doing when we were kids in advertising. And here we are. So never want to lose that perspective. But yeah, they’re awesome because the amount of partnerships. mean, long before there was VML or WPP in Coca-Cola was always associating with other brands, but we get to be part of that.

Bennie 

Right. Yeah.

Jon

We get to do big musical collaborations around the world with them, with some of the biggest artists, and that’s X plus X. Coca-Cola plus us, plus like an amazing artist. Coca-Cola, you know, let’s go back to Wendy’s. One of the clients of Coca-Cola is Wendy’s, because it gets a big Coca-Cola pour in Wendy’s. We get to cross those lines. We get to sit in meetings between Wendy’s and Coca-Cola and VML.

Bennie 

Right.

Jon 

Because that’s our world colliding and we make that better. That’s XXX, just to your point. Well, I shouldn’t say that’s XXX, that sounds insensitive, but you know what mean. Yeah, it’s something different. That’s a whole different thing with the whole other podcast probably.

Bennie

That’s something different, but we get the thought. And a full disclosure, I’m smiling as you’re talking about it because I didn’t know you were even going to dig into Coca-Cola. So my friend and mentor who said it’s all about humans, Coca-Cola. 

Jon

Mm-hmm. that’s poetic. That’s some, that’s some, it’s almost like we planned that.

Bennie

That’s poetic. That wasn’t even intended. I didn’t even know you’re going there. But it’s advice that I always kind of hold true.

Jon 

Yeah.

Bennie 

But yeah, I’m always interested in that creative dynamic, when you get really great creative people in the room and you understand the internal brief, right? That you have Wendy’s concerns, you have Coca-Cola concerns, and then VML can provide that integrated spark.

Jon 

Yeah. Yeah, that’s exactly it.

Bennie

So, you know, we’re thinking of, I’m a big believer that good ideas can come from everywhere and often do. So as a global concern, how often do you have ideas that germinate outside of the U.S. and then take hold inside of the U.S.?

Jon

All the time. I think it’s one of the best things about being a global company. It’s gonna happen naturally. So if you have a global company, you big enough company, ideas are gonna… They’re gonna come from all over because that just happens because of raw tonnage, because of having amazing people around the world. the bigger, that’s easy part. The bigger trick is how you as a leadership team listen,

Bennie 

There come a roll of it.

Jon 

Find those, bring them up, not just, and bring them to the center and make them amplify around the world and celebrate the people that had the ideas on a daily basis. My favorite moments are when I am part of finding something around the world and sharing it with others in the company and lifting somebody up who’s done something somewhere in the corner of the world. My worst moments are when I feel too busy that I haven’t done that for a long time. If I go a couple days without doing that, it makes me sad because there’s so much. Because I know that if I haven’t done it, not because there’s a lack of ideas that are being amplified, just because I didn’t have the time. 

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Jon 

Most fulfilling when I do it, most sad when I don’t get to it. And so I’m constantly pushing myself to find ideas around the world, find people, get to know them, lift them up, have other people get to know them. And if everybody does that, we got a pretty good company and we sure do because people are good at that. But I hate when a couple of days go by and I haven’t, though. It’s like it’s the curse of loving to do it so much that you feel the pain when you don’t.

Bennie 

When you don’t. So I’m going to ask this question because we’ve talked about the number of employees at VML. We’ve talked about career pathing and other space. What advice do you have as a contemporary agency head to those who may be considering going in? We have a lot of our members and a lot of our listeners who may be working in-house now or academia or have their own small firms who are looking to go into agencies in space. What career advice do you have?

Jon 

Yeah, I mean the first advice is I think for the people you’re talking about that may not be in an agency but might be agency adjacent, I would just say give it a try. is such an awesome industry. Every time there’s that like if you have a bad day or a bad hour, you put it in perspective, go, guys, we are working with the biggest brand. Our days are filled with some of the best brands in the world, around the world, and we get to help create their stories. It’s like let’s not lose sight of that. When you’re doing the spreadsheet on a Tuesday for, you know.

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Jon 

Something on you know in some region for Coca-Cola and that you just feel like it’s such a corner of the world on one thing It’s like now that connects us so much so I think I think we’re talking about people that are in-house which is which is fantastic, but I’m mad this is gonna sound like I’m not trying to get people to come out of their jobs, but I’m saying imagine, imagine coming to a world where your day was not just one brand, but it was many brands, And the capability that you were around was not just one but it was every and Imagine if the people you were around weren’t all the same, but they were from every country, and imagine if they were from every age group.

Bennie

Right.

Jon 

And that’s what a big agency has if done right. It’s pretty easy for me to make the sale because I just got to unpack what I like about it. And usually that translates to somebody else that I’d give that advice to. But you got to want it, though. It’s kind of 24/7, you know? And it’s hands-on, which is great.

Bennie 

You know, I’m gonna say this, what I love is that we started off the conversation talking about you, it’s been 28 years at VML. You when we talk, it’s like you just started, my friend. Like the excitement and the energy comes in, you know, of like, hey, we’re building this, we’re growing this, we’re creating this. I love the prompt just now.

Jon 

No, I appreciate that. I’ve had this little philosophy that… Our Chief Creative Officer is Debbie. Her name is Debbie Van Dieve and I’ve worked with her for 25 years. She lives in Kansas City as well. She’s a fantastic creative and great friend. We always had this motto, she and I and a couple others, which is when we were coming up at VML, it’s like, let’s not… I promise this will relate to what you just said. Give me a moment. It’s the… Why would we leave…

We don’t want to leave. We don’t want to leave working with each other, with our close friends and this company we love. But there’s things in life that would cause you to leave, like more money or different geography or different clients. So why don’t we just treat ourselves to putting the things you would leave a company for? If we look around, I go, we’re kind of in charge. Let’s put those things into the VML so we don’t have to leave. Let’s create the things that one would leave for. And then we got this.

Bennie 

I love that. The entrepreneur in me loves that. The leader in me loves that, right? The kind of creative person loves that in this space. Like, well, why don’t we build those things here? Because you have the…

Jon 

It’s like if you whatever ways like how did you guys ever get escape from just being a Kansas City agency 28 years ago? It’s like because people would maybe you eventually leave VML because they want to go different cities like, you know what, let’s put an office in New York. Next thing you know there are 60 offices around the world or whatever you might be you know. And it’s what made VML not just be a, itl started as an ad agency. We got really digital really fast early on, it’s one of our claims to fame. You know, we weren’t that strategic, it was like this digital stuff looks cool. Let’s build it in!

Bennie

Right. Right.

Jon 

We weren’t ever that strategic. We just wanted that we just loved our company and wanted to have things in it that we’d stay for.

Bennie 

I love the theme that comes through it, which is like imagine your own future, right? And it’s really powerful, whether you’re starting off your career, you’re in the middle of your career, or you’re thinking of the second or third act, right? Imagine that future. And it’s a great conversation. I can’t believe we’re at our time now, my friend. So this is we’re do. 

Jon 

Exactly. Yeah. Good way to put it.

Jon 

This is good. Thank you for all these questions.

Bennie

We’re gonna get back again, because we gotta talk pro-Super Bowl.

Jon

I hope I’m there.

Bennie

And post futures for 25. I know we’re definitely gonna come to New York and be a part of it, but it’s really been a pleasure to have these conversations about scale versus intimacy…

Jon 

Yeah, thanks for tapping into that.

Bennie

Locale and kind of the connection in there and how we are all global and local and local and global all at the same time. It’s a beautiful space and I’m really proud of what you guys are doing out there, man.

Jon

I love that observation, all your questions. It’s very reflective to me to, you know, and I think the lesson is never look at a big agency and just assume because it’s a couple letters and it sounds like a big whole, these things aren’t machines with robots. To your friend at Coca-Cola’s point, big agencies are usually made up of really good people. That’s why they’ve gotten big and that’s why they’re good. And so thanks for kind of unpacking the humanity that sits in a larger company because it’s certainly there. I appreciate it.

Bennie 

Well, thank you, Good Sir, for leading. And I look forward to more of these mashups and connections with brand. I’ll know that somebody at VML is behind it. 

Jon

Thanks, Bennie. Thanks for having me.

Bennie

And thank you all for joining us. This has been an incredible episode thinking about imagination, global scale, intimacy and home and spaces and how we build our own agency with VML CEO, Jon Cook and myself, Bennie F. Johnson, AMA CEO.

Thank you for joining us. We encourage you to check out VML and their portfolio of brands and the works that they do around the world. We encourage you to find out more about the work we do with the AMA and to look forward to the beginning of 2025 in VML’s future insights for 2025. Thank you.