Transcript

Bennie F. Johnson

Hello, and thank you for joining us for another episode of AMA’s Marketing / And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we’ll explore life through a marketing lens, delving into conversations of individuals that flourish at the intersection of marketing and the unexpected. We’ll introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not yet have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to know. Through our thought-provoking conversations, we’ll unravel the challenges, triumphs and pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing.   

Today, our special guest is Jason Brown. Jason is the current global CEO of Pearl Fisher. Prior to joining Pearl Fisher, he was an associate partner and head of production and design for Fahrenheit 212. Jason has a really rich experience where he’s led agencies and their businesses first in his jobs in boutique design studios in Toronto and then managing work across the globe. Jason has explored an unrelenting affinity for the tensions of function and form in 25 years in the industry. Jason succeeds by looking at the tangential spaces and the potential creative opportunities in his teams that they can sink their teeth in and never back down from pushing teams beyond the norm. What a great way to think about our introduction. Welcome to the podcast, Jason. How are you doing? I think we’ve got

Jason Brown

Thanks so much, Bennie. I’m well and well.

Bennie

I think this is the first time I’ve introduced someone and talked about pushing the teams to sink their teeth in beyond the norms. I love the fact that you’re going to push people to grow in the way that you first express yourself who you are. Talk to me a little bit about what’s brought you to that point as a leader, to really make it clear that you’re pushing people to be better than they may even imagine themselves.

Jason

Well, think early in my career, I was taught, but I would say a really valuable lesson, but one that I don’t know that everyone has the ability to either act on or make real. that is the greatness of any organization relies on the folks who are on the team. And being in a leadership position means that you have to have a certain measure of either confidence and maybe a combination of confidence, but also Humility to consistently hire people that you know are better than you and It’s an interesting trait to even consider to unpack right because I think so many folks think leading means Being the smartest person in the room right or being the person that either has all the answers or in fact is guiding everyone and everyone sort of Metaphorically behind you right? That’s the notion of leading when in fact again early lesson which grew extremely valuable. This idea that finding talent that you know is going to very quickly exceed you in their ability is really the best way to grow a successful organization. Knowing that your value isn’t about being the smartest or the best in the room, it’s about building the best team. And in doing so, you end up finding that the giving people room to find their own measure of independence and grow their own confidence and autonomy, right? In the sense of purpose on the job, you get that credit as a leader for giving them the space to do it when in fact, you know, it’s just a path that you’ve given them. They have all of the ability.

Bennie

Right, right. Right. I remember talking to a board member once about an organization that I was leading and I was CMO. And I remember the board member stopping and saying that the CEO gets credit for me being here. And I thought it was a conversation about my review and the things that I was doing and every space in there. And it’s like, yes, you’re brilliant. And they get credit for bringing you here.

Jason

That’s it. That is right. Right? Yes, yes, that’s the way it is. It’s because, yeah, the power or the most effective CEOs build the best teams, right? That’s the job, really. It’s not being along with all the answers.

Bennie

Right. Now let’s talk about that for a second. So you craft the best teams and then in your role as an agency partner, you take that team to help augment other teams. So what’s your approach to taking this kind of home team that you put together and finding a way to help other teams be better, help other brands and groups achieve their best?

Jason

Mm-hmm. Well, think typically the exercise for me starts with a real critical effort to articulate the problem, right? I think a lot of times we move past or move very quickly into the brief of the project versus spending a moment to determine, like, what is this exercise meant to solve? Like what problem is it meant to solve? What’s broken that needs to be fixed? What goal hasn’t been reached, but given I’m running a creative agency, like turning that conversation into a more of a, what is your business objective conversation? Just so that we are aligned on whether or not this brief is actually connected to the problem. Like, are you about to make an investment in an exercise that is actually targeting the challenge versus is it a vanity exercise? Is it sort of like, well, you know, on a, you know, on a cadence of every five years, we want to change our identity. So identifying the problem is the first piece. Articulating it in the way that attaches it to the business doesn’t make it necessarily about the outcome too quickly. And then once we’ve done that, my belief is that the only reason that we’re having a conversation with the client is because they’re expecting us to be able to do something for them that they can’t do for themselves. And that may be an obvious answer, but again, I think it’s sometimes missed when

Bennie

Right. Right.

Jason

We get into the early stages of a proposal or responding to an RFP and delivering some sort of provocation or POV on the problem that actually makes the client uncomfortable, right? Pushes them into a space that actually might be unsettling is a way to start to determine whether or not this is the right partner for you. So I’ve seen successes where those two…tactics, I would say have been applied again, understating the problem and then, and then a provocation. And then once you get into the work very quickly, establishing yourself as an extension of their team or extension of their culture and being flexible enough and agile enough to, to sort of change what might be your process or approach.

Bennie

Right. So you mentioned a bit about the brief and these uncomfortable moments that sometimes happened with the clients. Talk a bit about how you navigate that creative tension. Now, the clients are asking to go faster and you’re trying to help them get there, but you see the reticence. They’re not really ready for it. How do you find a way to kind of move? to champion that new for the class, to help them over their insecurities or help them over their risk aversion.

Jason

Well, I think there are a number of different ways to do it. think sort of maybe appealing to like an individual’s, the sense of like their own individual success on a project, right? So being able to connect with the person who’s responsible for bringing this to fruition and ultimately sort of the value of that person in the business, right? What KPIs are they being measured against? And how critical is it that there is a successful outcome? So connecting our organization not to the client’s problem, but to one very specific person on the client side whose job it is to get this over the line and have it deliver value, right? So if we can move the conversation into that space, sometimes that gets us past the moment of concern because now there’s the sense that, this is an agency that actually has my personal best interest in mind.

Right. It’s about my personal success versus the success of the business. Right. So now I’m having a moment of trust with this agency because they’re speaking to me as an individual. That’s, that’s one way to do it. I’ve also had some success again, sort of challenging the brief as it has been authored by trying to determine whether or not there’s a gap between, again, the problem. That the business might be addressing and the brief that they’ve put in place. One example, we’re doing a bit of work for a nutrition, like sports nutrition company. When they first came to us, they went immediately into sort of an identity practice or an identity exercise, right? We need a new brand identity and we need new packaging. And we challenged the brief to say, well, we think it’s actually too early to make those decisions because based on the content that you have created like based on your existing value proposition and all the sort of the content that that articulates who you are what you stand for what you represent and in a given market There’s still a bit of work for us to ensure that there’s actually can that connect the tissue between? Who you believe you are and what the market actually demands and until we can close that gap we can’t actually we would be ill-advised to move into a creative exercise because

Bennie

Right. Right. Right.

Jason

We can guarantee we’ll create something beautiful and attractive and award-winning. But if it’s being designed for the wrong audience or with the wrong ambition at its center, then it’s an exercise in vain, right?

Bennie

Right. Right. Then you lose all of that, you know, and you lose your credibility as a strategic partner as well. Right.

Jason

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Bennie

You’ve created the beautiful work that tanked the business, which is never what we want to be associated with, right? So I want to ask this question then, how have you seen that change for you in your career? You know, is it time that the clients are more aware and more open to these challenges? Do you see a maturity in the clients from when you first started pitching 20 years ago to what you pitched last week?

Jason

I don’t know if it’s maturity versus the knock on effect of, I think, performance marketing. I think we’ve all been affected by this. Where when I started my career, my jaw, I started in the design side of the equation. And ultimately, the organization that I worked for was rewarded projects based on our ability to win design awards. And sort of the…the awareness and the, let’s see, the scale of the work that we would do, the brands that the work we did was attached to. But we were never really held accountable for any measure of impact beyond delivery. So award-winning, great client loves it. We love it as designers and strategists, we’ve created award-winning work. But there was never a tie between the work that we did and the performance of our clients’ businesses. And then performance marketing comes along and says, well, we can actually measure everything and we can do it at an alarming pace. And so why are you spending upwards of, I don’t know, three or $4 million on a rebrand, a global rebrand, when we can do some A-B testing and let you know exactly

Bennie

Right, right. Right.

Jason

the word for words, word for word, what you should be using in your communications in order to be successful. So the pressure that I performance marketing put on what you might call the traditional branding agencies was enormous. so less maybe, think savvy might be the word that I think client savvy, but relative to the…

Bennie

Right. Mm-hmm.

Jason

the value that each of them has in their own organization and what they’re being measured on. So award-winning work that doesn’t move the needle is not okay. And that’s the biggest shift that I’ve noticed over the course of my career is that the more that I can connect the work that we do to delivering measurable value for my client, the better off I am.

Bennie

Right. Right. Right. Mm-hmm.

Now let’s talk a bit about your personal journey. As we mentioned, you’ve been at Pearlfisher for about a year. You know, what attracted you to the role? What attracted you to this challenge at this moment?

Jason

A number of things. I mean, I started my career as a designer. and so Pearlfisher actually is a brand and a business that I was very familiar with when, when I got the call. because when I was like early in my career, let’s say, if you wanted to, if you wanted to get any experience in the pack design world, packaging design, like you did, you did a tour at Pearlfisher. That’s what they were known for. So. They’re 33 years, you know, just over three decades old now. And I’ve transitioned in my career. I’ve been lucky enough to find opportunities and have a measure of, of, of interest and, and curiosity that allowed me to move from being a designer into being more of a strategist from a strategist into more of a, um, a consultant. Um, I went to innovation consulting firm, the fair night two and two.

I started my own business after that, I ran my own firm with an ex-colleague of mine, our own design firm, two of us in a WeWork sort of thing. We were never more than five people. And then in that experience of running a business with a colleague of mine, that’s when I would say the, what I would call the more operational side of the equation started to really interest me, right? Like just getting up every morning and knowing that.

Bennie

Right. Uh-huh.

Jason

This thing lives or dies on your watch, you naturally grow a different set of muscles and sensitivities, especially if you are a young family at home, you find new depths of energy and stick to it in this, right? Cause yeah, this thing is on you. So I would argue that that four years that I was running my own business was the biggest stretch or maybe the biggest leap in terms of my…my education, which set me up for a role at a company called Godfrey Daddage Partners, where I was hired on as the president and was given the New York office. And so that’s when I moved into more of a pure operator role. I would say that every step in that journey that I’ve just given you needed to happen in order for me to be prepared for this opportunity. So, you know, no accidents in life, so to speak. Every one of those moments had its own measure of curiosity, faith, and performance, mistakes, and learnings, such that by the time the call came for this gig, was pretty confident in running after it.

Bennie

Right. It’s really powerful that you said how all these stops and how these moments and stretches in their journey prepare you for where you are without you even realizing that that’s what you’re being prepared for. And then you wake up and you know, I, no idea. I love when, when, know, PearlFisher, when you talk about yourselves, we talked about the power of team and the people around you being smarter and more dynamic. You know, you guys proclaim that you have a group.

Jason

Had no idea. Yeah.

Bennie

That’s made up of visionary futurists, strategists, designers, and realizers. I love that continuum between looking at tomorrow and coming into today and having a real active way in which you can part the play in. Right? Because the realizers are now, the futures are tomorrow, but the strategists and designers are fighting in between to get us there.

Jason

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bennie

You know, it’s really, I think it’s, it’s really a unique positioning, but it’s important to say those things as a part of how you bring value to your organization and your space. You know, it’s, you’re going to think about it. I look at some of the work that you guys do, it’s on sustainability. You know, that’s all about strategy and future, right. And, design is heavily steeped in that. And then being pragmatic about it is even one of those untapped superpowers.

Jason

Mm-hmm.

Bennie

That goes along with the work that you have. When you think about the work that you’re doing now, I ask a simple question. What type of projects are you most proud of these days? What are the ones that really you see you and your team bringing all of your best to?

Jason

Maybe an obvious, obvious answer, but I think the more holistic the exercise is, the stronger we feel about the deliverable, right? Like what we actually hand over to the client as a product. It’s interesting, you mentioned the different teams that make up Pearl Fisher and how we talk about those teams.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right. Gotcha. Right.

Jason

I’ve been here just over a year now and one of the reorientations I’ve made and we’re about to launch a new website and so this will be public very soon, but we were spending a lot of time talking to the market through the lens of those four practices, right? So we were basically, you can imagine in an introductory or response to an RFP if we’re telling the story about Pearlfisher. We start with, are these four things or we are these five groups.

And what I’ve noticed over my career is that with as much competition as there is in market, it’s not the most differentiating position anymore because most of the people we compete against or most of the agencies we compete are also made up of strategists and, you know, analysts and researchers and designers. And so it’s harder to differentiate on the teams that make up the agency. So the reorientation and sort of the flip was rather than talking to the market about who we are as a group of teams or disciplines, it’s more, what’s the easiest way to talk about the capabilities or the things that we create as a collective such that when a client is shopping, so to speak, they can see their problem in our communications before they even need to know anything about how we address the problem. In terms of the team that we put together. So that’s been a significant change for what I would call the internal language that we’re using and soon to be external. But what’s happened is we’ve put together what we’ll call a single page definition of our business. And it is five capabilities that make up that holistic value creation, that holistic approach to value creation.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Nice.

Jason

And so there are these five pillars, the first one being insights and futures, which is in any exercise. you typically start with a need for a measure of intelligence, right? You just need to know what’s happening in market, whether it’s at a cultural altitude category, consumer, you just need to get smart. So we have a killer one that we call insights and futures. And that’s the exercise of let’s get you smart. and we will pull from.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jason

Researchers and strategists and designers. the teams become more horizontal versus verticals in the business, where capabilities are the verticals, the teams are the horizontals. And then from insights, we move into our second pillar of capabilities, and it’s product innovation. So that’s sort of the, once you have the right intelligence, well, what net new products or services can you bring to market? Or…Now you need to go figure out where the white spaces are for you to start to innovate in. What’s your innovation pipeline look like? Do you have a portfolio of products that you can now extend? Once you move past that moment, assuming you’ve discovered or determined or decided what product you have an opportunity to bring to market, then you have to position it. So that moves into our third pillar, which is brand definition. And that’s the more traditional brand positioning, brand architecture. Brand on a page type work. once you position it, you move to pillar four, that’s brand identity. So now you need to determine what it looks like, what it sounds like, and ultimately what does it look like on pack? And so in that fourth pillar is where I think the market knows us most in terms, like traditionally the work that we’ve brought to market is in that fourth pillar. And there’s a fifth pillar that is activation and go to market. So everything up to that point has been a conceptual exercise, right? Where you’ve now got a great, wonderful sense of a brand identity, both visual and verbal. You’ve got some padded concepts in front of you. not, not you need the actual mechanicals and the materials, a material understanding and some sculptural work or, you know, prototypes and three-dimensional to three-dimensionalizing the product. And you also need things like.

Bennie

Okay. Right. Right.

Jason

Animations and social media or social platform content that might be tight little video pieces for the same product. And so we all do, we do all those in house as well. So we can give you everything you need to launch said product in hand as a tangible object, which means nothing gets lost in translation from the conceptual piece to the actual piece that’s in the real world. So that one through five.

Any engagement that allows that to happen easily is our most powerful work. Because there’s been no, nothing has fallen into the cracks, right? There’s been no tax that you have to pay as you move a project from one agency to the next.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Wow, wow. Right. Right. I love the thinking on that. It is just hearing you kind of reframe and mine from within, like these are the skills that your team already has, but you’re framing your Pearl Fisher brand and market a little differently. I’m going to ask you this question. You know, when we have to rebrand or reposition ourselves, we’re typically the most challenging brief. So how was it to come to a team that’s had established success and then think about these are things that are inherent to how we approach and how we succeed, but there’s a disconnect between competition and how we’re messaging the marketplace. We’re going to take that time and work on ourselves. How is that kind of process to say, we’re winning, but we have an opportunity to elevate even more?

Jason

Geez, how much time have you got, Bennie? This has been a journey, yeah.

Bennie

We got all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, you know, when I hear you kind of internalize it and speak to all the spaces from what we’ve talked about, what I’ve seen, I know you’re coming from these places of strength, but it takes a lot to deconstruct yourself and then reinterpret and project that brand in a positive way. And I know our listeners would love to hear about that. Right.

Jason

Yeah. Mm-hmm. yes. Yeah. Yeah, it’s um, it’s been a challenge. I think the dust is settling now, certainly. So you can imagine also walking into what I would call a very unique situation, given that it’s a founder led organization. And Pro Fisher has just a wonderful cultural quality, such that the 10 years of some of the most senior people, like 20 years, 18 years, 15 years, these folks have been essentially leading this organization. So I would argue probably a natural uphill battle for me as I walked in the door as, you know, this guy from the outside and you’ve got a layer of the organization who really has taken ownership of what this business has become over the better part of last three decades. And it’s sort of like, who is who is this guy to tell us where we should be going and what we should be doing in future?

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right. Right, right.

Jason

But I credit the two founders who certainly have done a wonderful job in creating what Pearlfisher is to date. And ultimately, they’ve decided that they want to take the organization to the next level and see if they can’t experience a bit more of accelerated growth as they’re even considering maybe what might be a succession planning, right? They’ve been doing this a while, and they’re seeing sort of the end of the line.

What it means to not only attempt to incentivize, but also inspire an organization to sort of get on the bus, like craft a vision, find the right forums for input, but then also have the resolve in your ability to make a decision and move forward, right?

There’s a version of this where you just, it becomes sort of group think and everyone gets to weigh in. Everyone should have an opinion, especially those who are very senior, but then someone has to make the call, right? Someone has to say, this is what we’re doing and this is where we’re going. And then at that moment is when I think what will naturally happen is you have some folks who are really excited about the vision and the path and the journey. And then there are others who just decide it’s not the bus they want to be on. And I think that’s there. Everyone can come to expect a moment like that, especially as an objective outsider to the business. And so I certainly have experienced some of that where the two founders, they put a lot of confidence in me and trust in me. They believed in the vision that I put forth for what the opportunity is for growth for Pearl Fisher. And then the way to achieve that growth. And then it became a bit of a recruiting exercise to see how many of the team, existing team are interested in going on this journey with me. And then, yeah, and then everyone sort of, it’s, there’s an, a natural process of some opting in and some opting out. so having, knowing that going in, like just knowing that that’s going to be what’s, what’s going to happen, that that is going to be the outcome is important in order to navigate through it such that you don’t.

You don’t take it personally. You stay committed to the decisions you’re making and you move forward, right? You can imagine it’s easy for self-doubt to find its way in as you’re seeing folks walk out of the building. But yeah, it’s been an amazing challenge, an incredible opportunity. And we’re finding our feet now. We’re getting our footing.

And we’re starting to get the right people on the bus is really the focus.

Bennie

We talked a lot about creative leadership, right? And know, it comes, it just shines through. And we think about the language you have as a leader and growing up as a designer and kind of playing all the positions and being in this creative leadership space. You’ve been able to kind of build teams on top of teams. You’re working with clients. I’m going to ask a bit about a topic that, comes up a lot of our conversations and I’m smiling because normally I’m not the one who brings it up, but I’m going to bring it up this time.

Jason

There we go.

Bennie

So how do you feel about the additional team member in the space that comes in the form of technology and AI’s impact on your team and the work that you’re doing? What opportunities are you seeing and what are some of the early challenges that you’ve seen in the space?

Jason

I mean, I think it’s so nascent. It’s like, I mean, we are at the beginning of this journey when it comes to AI, the very beginning, right? This is a crawling baby, right? And so the way that I’ve attempted to think about it is, well, first of all, a measure of embracing it.

Bennie

Right. So true. So true. Right, right.

Jason

In the sense that there is no, there’s no looking away, right? There’s no avoiding it and there’s no denying the impact it’s ultimately going to have and certainly already has had. But running a design firm, I think we’ve made use of some great tools, right? Especially in the general sense. And the reality is, I don’t know that it’s that different and I may be speaking at a turn here a bit, but the…

I don’t know that it’s that different than a pencil or some design software in the sense that like the user determines the outcome, right? Cause if it’s garbage in, it’s garbage out. So what’s happening, I think is in the way I start to think about it is the skill base of designers might shift where. When I started out in my career, like you had to be able to draw extremely well in order to build a career in design, right?

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Jason

You just had to be able to draw. That was it. So if you couldn’t draw, forget it. It’s not happening. So then desktop publishing software comes along, right? You get the desktop publishing software. And now anyone with a computer can call themselves a designer as long as they’ve got the right software when we know, in fact, that isn’t true because it’s just another version of the pencil, right? It’s how do you think, conceptually, right, your ability to create craft. So then is this

Bennie

You’re right, right.

Jason

You know, fast forward, is this another version of that where instead of the pencil and being able to draw or being able to sit down with design software and use the tools effectively, right? Complex platforms to make things real. It’s actually the prompts. And so it might just become a little bit more of a cognitive exercise versus sort of like the traditional artistic or designer exercise, but there’s still going to be a requirement that said user is putting good stuff in in order for good stuff to come out. But the future designer may just be brilliant at prompts versus know how to draw.

Bennie

Right. Great. Right. But to your point, there’s always a human-based knowledge that’s driving. Yeah.

Jason

So yeah, that’s absolutely, yes, absolutely. So that’s the way I’m thinking about it now in terms of how it’s the role that it’s going to end up playing in our business. Certainly we can move faster. Certainly we make tangible our ideas with more clarity, again, with more speed, with more variety, I think. The notion of the ability to create the unknown, to envision the unknown with these tools is pretty limitless versus what it was, again, when I was early in my career where you had the limitations of what you shot for yourself or what you found in stock imagery or that you paid someone to illustrate. This is just a…

Moving on from those as the limited resources that you have to actually bring to materialize an idea, right? Materialize a concept without question. We’re going to be able to do more, do it faster. But I hold to the user being the key, still the key ingredient.

Bennie

Right. Right. Yeah. As a shaper and recruiter and trainer and developer of teams, in your role now, what advice would you have for the college students who are just coming out or the creators who are making that move into that space? You we were talking about it. You’re right. When we were coming up, if you could draw, that was a prerequisite. You had to be able to draw or have that kind of measure of that creative badge, right?

That you earned a space in there and then you built from there. What advice would you have for folks coming into it today? Coming to our space, thinking about brand and creative roles.

Jason

Yeah.

Bennie

You know, they have access to our students, they have access to everything.

Jason

Yeah, I think the what I mentioned earlier is only going to increase and that’s the pressure that the market is going to put on our work to deliver results, right? To actually make a difference in how a business grows, how a product’s sales increase, how top line revenue increases. Like, I think that pressure is going to continue. So there is the beauty of craft and the brilliance of just what we’ll call good design, Like emotive moving material, right? The content. But in our world, and I’ll say in like specifically in my world where clients are coming to us because they have a business problem, and this was always the separation that I used to make when I was back in school too, because I would

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

Jason

I used to get frustrated with the fine arts kids who were just incredibly talented. And I could never draw or paint like the fine arts kids in college. But so I had to convince myself that that’s actually not my value. It’s not how well I do that or my ability to do that. It’s my job as communication artist or graphic designer. I solve business problems through the lens of design, which changes the whole context for then what my value is to my clients and yes, I love winning awards just as much as the next designer does when at least when I was designing. But if I were talking to myself, my college self or telling anyone that I think if it’s a imagine it’s a, it’s a highly competitive space and, and you need to separate yourself from an equally talented designer who’s, who’s after the same, after the same role as you, your ability to translate the work you do into the value that it has for the people you’re doing it for. And again, just through purely graphic design lens that conclude that it could include, you know, again, brand identity or packaging, things of that nature. I think you end up with the advantage. I think you end up with a superpower that allows you to sit in a room across from, you know, brand managers and brand owners and have a conversation with them that takes all of the brilliance of the detail of design. So we can have a conversation about colors and fonts.

But how do you translate that into something again that delivers value, that means value, that warrants an investment from your client? And if you can spend some time figuring out, it’s a little bit of being a translator. It’s a little bit of being able to turn one conversation into another. I think you end up with a bit of an advantage.

Bennie

Right. I think that’s an incredible way to actually close our conversation out, my friend. mean, what, what dynamic advice for how to create, it’s great advice on how to create a distinction and an advantage as we kind of move through. you know, your work at Pearl Fisher, you’re often doing the first part of the brand that people encounter and the plastic piece that they stay with the longest. And I think good sir, in our talk, you’ve been able to leave that with our audience.

Thank you and thank you for your candor and sharing with us just the work you’ve done and kind of repositioning yourself and the brand and the work and giving us really great things to think about of design and value and impact for today and tomorrow. So thank you for joining me, my friend.

Jason

Thank you, Bennie. I really appreciate the time and thank you for having me.

Bennie

What incredible conversation and we’ll be sure to keep our eye on Pearl Fisher in the coming months and coming years as you roll out the additional side and work. Thank you all for joining us for this special episode of AMA Marketing / And. We invite you to check out Pearlfisher and their work and their clients. We invite you to explore the offerings of the AMA as you look to distinguish yourself in your career and your learning. And we know that dynamic design requires strategy input and a positive view for the future. Jason, thank you for bringing all of that to the table today.

Jason

Thanks so much, Bennie. Really appreciate it.