Transcript

Bennie F Johnson

Hello, and thank you for joining me for another episode of AMA’s Marketing / And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we explore life through a marketing lens, delving into conversations of individuals that flourish at the intersection of marketing and the unexpected. We hope to introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not yet have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to know.

Through our thought-provoking conversations, we’ll unravel the challenges, triumphs, and pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing. Today, in our focus on purpose, my special guest is none other than Melissa Four Shackleford, a nationally recognized marketing strategist, consultant, and author. She leads Shackleford Strategies, where she advises healthcare and tech organizations on brand clarity, market growth, and purpose-driven leadership.

She was named our American Marketing Association 2019 Nonprofit Marketer of the Year, and has spent over two decades helping mission-focused brands scale with impact. Her latest book, Harnessing Purpose, A Marketer’s Guide to Inspiring Connections, offers real-world tools for marketers who want to lead with clarity, creativity, and conviction. Melissa, welcome.

Melissa Shackelford 

Thank you for having me, Bennie. As you know, I am a long time fan and participant in so many things with the AMA. I am just thrilled to be here and to chat with you and to kind of bring this story to all of your audience.

Bennie 

We’re so delighted to have you here and we thought what a perfect tie-in as we focus on purpose this season. And I love the last words of the intro for you. Clarity, creativity, and conviction. So what does that mean for you, Melissa? Why anchor on those three moments?

Melissa

Think today in just the way the world is working, I think all of us are leaning into or trying to lean into and need more clarity and authenticity in our world. When you think about it from a marketing and communications lens, we really have to lean into that clarity as well as the conviction because we need to know what we stand for, whether it’s me as a marketer, or me as a brand owner, I need to know what I stand for. So I need to pull all that all together. I just feel like that’s what we need more of in this world. And that’s what our consumers and our audiences are looking for.

Bennie

Yeah, it’s so true in this space. And we’ll talk a bit about, you put together Harnessing Power, a marketer’s guide to inspiring this connection. So, you know, thinking about that, how deeply rooted this is for you, what really triggered you to kind of put it all down in this marketer’s guide?

Melissa

So I have been a mission-driven person just in my life forever, but I’ve also worked for many, many mission-focused brands and not just in the nonprofit space. And I had wanted to do a book for a long time and I was doing a podcast and the host mentioned to me that he’s seeing a lot of young marketers leave the profession because they feel like they’ve sold their soul.

Bennie

Right.

Melissa

And I really understood that because marketing has really gotten so focused on the numbers, on the KPIs, on the data, which is great. It’s been really an amazing sort of progress for our profession. And I think, but then we get a little bit away from the meaning and connecting with our customers. And so I think in marketing, we need to balance.

Bennie

Right. Right, right.

Melissa

And what I told the host is that that really wasn’t my experience with marketing because I’ve always sought out organizations or teams that had more understood what their why was. And myself, I’d always as a brand leader, try to really hard bring our values into the brand and as we practice and speak to our customers. And so that was really a great conversation for me, it spurred an article which spurred another article, which I turned into an outline for a book. And granted, I’ve been a healthcare marketer for an awful long time, but before that, I worked at manufacturing companies and software companies and financial services that you might not look at as mission driven brands. But I really feel like anybody as a marketer or communicator can start with the why.

Bennie

Right. Right.

Melissa

What is our organization stand for and what are our values and make sure that that’s coming through. just creates that, like you said, it’s the clarity and the authenticity of your message. And people can, I think they can tell when you’re not being true and you’re not sticking with your values. It’s so, you know, so interesting. We were recently having a conversation and it strikes me in that space of marketers finding their way around the why and realizing that even the most generic consumer product has a story in which it was introduced to cause societal good or to help solve a problem. And these other spaces that are really about care and really about connection. And it’s important for us to look and find that you can be true to that. It wasn’t always profit emotives.

And it should be, even though organizations, and I’ve worked for some really big healthcare, some Fortune 50 healthcare organizations, so you could say it’s all about the profit, but even there, we’re really thinking about the end user, because at least in healthcare, everyone is a healthcare consumer, all of us are. And so even if you’re working for a Fortune 50 company, you’re still thinking about our end user is yourself.

Bennie

Right, right.

Melissa

Your neighbor, your best friend, your cousin, it’s everyone, is a healthcare consumer. But I also hear what you’re saying about other brands. You don’t have to be in healthcare. You don’t have to be a nonprofit. I started one of the early companies I worked for in my career was at Honeywell. And if you’re familiar with Honeywell, Honeywell makes thermostats. And in fact, they were the first ones to make the round thermostat. So that’s why we say today, turn up the heat. It is because of that round thermostat that Honeywell made.

Bennie

Right. Okay? Yes. Yes.

Melissa

And so I think about when I worked there, well, it wasn’t really sexy. Wasn’t really nonprofit mission driven, but we certainly could see the good in the world that we were doing because, and granted, I live in Minneapolis and thermostats and heating and, know, is very important to us, but you certainly can tie it through, especially as a marketer, who is your end customer? Who are you helping? And yes, thermostats are really important to all of us.

Bennie

Nice, yeah.

So it’s interesting, we go for these products. You mentioned that you heard in a conversation that young marketers were relieving the way. What advice would you have for marketers now to kind of turn back? As a profession, we always want the best, the brightest, the most talented. And it’s heartbreaking to hear young marketers leaving. What advice would you have to kind of reengage with the profession?

Melissa

That’s kind of the whole beginning of my book. The first several chapters are really speaking to people in that situation and how to find your why. What is your own personal purpose? What excites you? What gets you up in the morning? What drives you? And then seeking out opportunities that then you have an opportunity to continue to have that sort of personal flywheel moving. And so I think marketing is such a broad profession.

And we have, yes, we have become very digital, very data-driven, very analytical, and we need people with those skill sets. And we still need people who are creatives and storytellers, all of that. But I think at its core, when we’re talking about marketing, it’s really a human being communicating with another human being at its core, no matter which angle you’re looking at. And so for me, if I can speak to a young marketer, I’d first really say,

What you need to start with is your own why and your own purpose. And what are you excited about? What do you find your kind of your purpose and then seek out those opportunities. And even if you’re in an organization that’s a manufacturing company or you’re making software, you can still really seek out what are the organization’s values? Do you align with those values? And always keeping that end user customer in mind, even in a B2B world, I always remind people you’re still selling to a person.

Bennie

Right. So when we think about the work that you do in particular with healthcare, it is all about connecting to the humans and the space that goes into it. How do you approach making sure that the marketing programs that you’re leading never lose track of that?

Melissa

I think that’s a really hot topic these days, especially in healthcare because it’s coming around because of the AI conversation. And in healthcare… A lot of people are saying, well, let’s just lean really hard into AI, even on the marketing and communication side. And for me, we have to make sure we’re balancing that because of the fact that whether you’re in healthcare, doing your healthcare provider, or you’re doing some sort of technology supporting healthcare, it’s really, like I said, it’s everyone is a healthcare consumer. There’s nothing more precious to any of us than our healthcare and that of our loved ones. And so for me in healthcare, how we balance that today and balance with the AI is that we have to lean really hard into authenticity. And that’s kind of a buzzword, but I still think authenticity in healthcare is making sure that your message is clear, it’s empathetic, it’s honest, and it’s true to your values because, and we see it in the news a lot, you can’t just say these are your values and do something different.

Bennie 

Right, right.

Melissa

And in healthcare, people have lots of options these days. I mean, and honestly, beyond that, in healthcare, we have a lot of consumers who don’t want to get care. And so we really have to lean into being really clear and honest and authentic really with our messaging so that they feel welcome to come and get the care that they need.

Bennie

Right. Right, which is so incredibly important and in life saving and life altering in many cases in there. So it’s interesting. Did you lead marketing in a space where you can see directly how it really matters? Now with that kind of in the speed of the market space in there, how do you manage creativity in a space that’s often regulated? Many of our marketers, you know, don’t live in a space that has that much regulation. But when we think about healthcare and finance. You’re in a space in which there’s creativity, there’s a conviction, but then there’s also making sure that you’re keeping abreast with what the rules are.

Melissa 

I just had this conversation with a marketer, it was this week or last week, about how important the lawyers and compliance professionals are to marketing and how I have really walked hand in hand or arm in arm with my legal team at every kind of organization that I’ve worked with in healthcare. So for me, one of the ways that you can still be creative is get to know your compliance people, get to know your legal folks and work together so that

Bennie

Yes. Right?

Melissa 

They’re not shooting down everything you’re trying to do. So I think for me, that’s become such an important relationship. And the beauty of it is a lot of people in those professions with those skillsets, they’re really interested in what we do in marketing and how we communicate with the end users. So I’ve always had really great experiences there, but bringing them in early so that they understand what you’re trying to do. And yes, you might have to do disclaimers. Yes, you might have to say something with certain language, but for me, that’s always been okay.

Bennie

Right. Right.

Melissa 

Understanding that I can still work to get the right message across. partnering, really partnering with those folks and not seeing them as an impediment. Same, like you said, for people in financial services, all these different areas. But I don’t see it as a negative for us in highly regulated industries if we know how to really partner with those folks in compliance and legal.

Bennie 

Right, it’s so important. Oftentimes we’ll hear of the marketing team running in the opposite direction of the legal department. And I know from my personal experience in other spaces, these become your active partners when they know where you’re trying to go and where you’re trying to take the work to.

Melissa 

Exactly. I would say I’ve had many roles where my general counselor, the chief legal officer, as well as the CIO are my two best partners. And I think if you look at marketing, you know, 10, 15 years ago, or even in some other industries, you wouldn’t say that. But when you’re talking about a highly regulated industry, you need to be in lockstep with them. And that just shows

Bennie

Right. Right.

Melissa

One of the, think, beautiful things and attractive things about marketing as a profession is that we are partners with so many different parts of an organization. We are not one of those siloed roles. When you think about partnering with the CFO, partnering with everyone across the organization, and in the healthcare space, oftentimes you’re talking about the chief medical officer, chief nursing officer, and folks like that. And I think that’s just another kind of bonus. And are another reason why it’s an attractive profession for a lot of folks.

Bennie 

And I was, you leaned right into it. I was going to ask you the question about how do you see the future of marketing as a collaborative partner in so many spaces around there, right? We talk about these intersections of technology, of compliance, of information systems. When you think about, you know, what’s next for marketing, how can we enhance that collaboration?

Melissa 

I think AI is really helping us to leapfrog into the future with that because marketing is one of the areas that was able to really test out a lot of AI before other areas were able to. And so that’s where when you have an organization, large or small, everybody’s looking at how can they leverage AI. It’s partnering with your…

A lot of times it’s the CIO or the tech department and saying, okay, these are the different things we want to test. And so I think the partnership is going to get even closer in the future. mean, in the last five, six, maybe 10 years, the marketing leaders and the tech leaders have gotten really close. I mean, you know, our listeners can’t hear see my hand gesture, but it’s, was really there. They’re just tied together because of all marketing is marketing technology. And so we can’t separate them. And when you think about marketing is data and marketing is analytics and now marketing really is AI. so we can’t have, because marketing is one of the areas that has really been on the forefront of adoption, we’ll be leading the charge in many respects, but we’ll also be guinea pigs for many organizations to say, yes, we can do this and this is how we’ll do it.

I did have a conversation not too long ago with, she was at one of our, universities who’s training our next generation of marketers. And she said, lot of the students are worried that AI is going to take their jobs. And my answer to that was no, they’re going to partner with tech, they’re going to partner with AI and they’re going to be doing things a lot differently and a lot better frankly than we did back in the day. So it’s not that they’re not going to have jobs, it’s just that their jobs are going to look a lot different than.

Bennie

Are going to look a lot different, but are still a part of this program that we call marketing. And how do we move forward in this space in there? It’s also interesting, as you mentioned, working with educators and academics. What advice do you have for those marketing students who are coming into the marketplace now? They’re coming in, they’re entering a different world than we did.

Melissa

They did when we came in.

Bennie

Understandably, right? But what advice do you have for embracing this new phase of marketing?

Melissa 

So I would say probably maybe three angles with that. One is to embrace the technology and get to know the technology. There’s new things popping up every day, but that’s one of the things marketing is not separated from technology. Marketing is technology these days. The next one would be to really understand marketing is an analytical profession now, no matter what side of marketing you’re in. If you were just a…amazing, creative, you’re still going to need the data. So really also lean into the data and the analytics in your training. And most of the programs today are leaning in there. And then, and then third, and this is kind of what one of the things that I lean into in my book is really think about your own why. And so that you’re, you don’t have to necessarily go in a vertical market like healthcare, or to a nonprofit, but

There’s a lot of meaning in this profession and you can get a lot of fulfillment. There’s always something new that you can learn. So if you’re a lifelong learner, it’s a great profession for folks. But to really lean into that and take the time, as you’re in that phase of your career development to say you really understand your own purpose and your own why.

Bennie

Right, and I think that’s knowing yourself in that space, as you mentioned before, is going to give you the confidence and the grounding to be a better marketer for the products and resources you have.

Melissa

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think we see that all the time. The best marketers we know, it really always rings true to who they are.

Bennie 

So we focused a bit on clarity, and I think we have a good understanding on that. And we talked about the conviction and the passion space in there. Let’s talk a bit about creativity. Where do you draw inspiration from today?

Melissa 

I love that as a topic and I feel like we could talk for hours. I always say I draw a lot from my network and I have never claimed to be the most creative marketer on the planet, but I know how to spur ideas from others. And so I have an amazing network. I’ve got great folks in my world. So if I am sort of struggling with something creatively, I will bounce ideas off of people.

I think for me, that’s been one of the most valuable things I’ve done is really build this broad and amazingly talented network of marketers and creatives in my world. So I can say, hey, could you take a look at this? Or I’m trying to think of something interesting or different here. I have amazing people in my life that I can either ask to hold up a mirror to me or to help me make decisions. I think a lot of the beauty of marketing is that it is a team sport. In fact, I think I have a chapter in my book about that’s that title. It really is a team sport. And so for me, that’s where I’ve always really leaned in hard to, to my network and to help me spur things along that way.

Bennie 

Right. Yes. It really speaks to the power of community that we talk about all the time, that you have folks who are ahead of you, coming behind you, or peers in a space in there, but those connections are what really kind of matter as a marketer.

Melissa 

Yeah, I, in fact, that just brings up, I’ve been a mentor for the AMA before and had really amazing just relationship and learning. I feel like I learned probably more than the mentee and I’ve mentored through other organizations as well. And, and I feel like that’s just one of the things there’s a opportunity to give back. And then there’s such an opportunity to learn because young marketers today, some of the things that they’re learning are light years beyond what I would ever do. And that’s just part of. It shows what an amazing community is. And for me, it’s also that almost every marketer I know is one of those sort of lifelong learners because there’s always something new and changing. think about where I was 15 years ago, what we called marketing is dramatically different than what we called marketing today.

Bennie 

Right. That’s so, so, so true. And I love you speaking to what we, I am really a big fan of this multi-directional mentorship, right? Where you’re, we’re engaging in there. We built teams in that way, in the best space where you have this kind of diversity of experience and you have more junior person taking the lead on a project with a senior person learning in there and vice versa, or in the space we talked about there, moving diagonally across. I’m learning a lot from finance in the way they’re approaching X. That no one would ever think matters to marketing, but yet it does.

Melissa

Absolutely. I mean, that’s really the diversity of teams is so important on so many levels. Like I do a lot of work in the mental health and substance use disorder space. And I talk to people about breaking down stigma and the value of having diversity in your teams. And a lot of that also is diversity. Like I’ve had people on my teams that were on the autism spectrum and they, some of the value that they brought was really getting us to think about things differently, not only to break down stigma, which is really important, but also to let us think, okay, when we’re doing our inclusive marketing, it’s not just about making sure we have larger font size for older adults. It’s making sure we have lots of diversity of thought. And also when we’re talking to an audience that could include neurodivergent audience, that we need to think about what resonates and what messages and what…tactics work best with this particular audience.

Bennie

So I’m going to shift gears a minute and just ask this question. When you start to think about bringing things together like teams, I want to talk a little bit about bringing organization and brands together. Because you’ve had some experience in that space as well in which you’re kind of blending these cultures in space. And just our conversation about teams made me think about that for a moment in your background. was like, talk about that experience of keeping a marketing brand going through the change of bringing two or more groups together.

Melissa

I have a great example in that space and it’s a brand story and it’s a team story. I, one of the reasons I actually took the job at Hazelden, what is now Hazelden Betty Ford is I knew they were going to be merging. And in the substance use disorder and mental health space, you have the iconic Betty Ford center. And then you had Hazelden, which was a much kind of bigger national organization and they were coming together. So they were the two kind of iconic historic brands in their space. And we see this in other industries as well. When you’re bringing two brands together and you have to be kind of delicate in the process. And for me, it’s really how do you respect both histories and bringing them together? And that’s what we did. And we did all sorts of research and including all the different stakeholders. But for us, it was not only bringing together two brands, it was bringing together two cultures, two marketing teams, two organizations together. The lucky…kind of lucky thing that we ran across or the beautiful part of it is we had a shared history that not everyone knew about. just a little history on that. Betty Ford was the first lady of the United States. And when she left and she became sober and she started her own addiction treatment center. Well, when she decided to start that, she actually went to Hazelden.

Bennie 

Right. Okay. Give us the reveal. Yeah.

Melissa 

And so there were photos. So she tried to learn how to start this. There was photos that we had of Mrs. Ford with her, with her secret service and the then president of Hazelden on the campus when she was learning how to do this. So that was an image that I harken to as much as possible during that branding transition, during that organizational transition, pulling the marketing teams together. Cause you could say we were there together at the beginning.

Bennie 

Wow. Right, right.

Melissa 

And for me, that’s just a lesson. Not everybody’s got pictures like that. But when you’re bringing those teams together to be able to have kind of that North star, when you think about it, we have a shared history. And so yes, we belong together. And it makes us closer like we weren’t two strangers coming together. And you can’t say that for every merger or acquisition, but you can search for that. You can search for that. Is that commonality that brings everyone together? we’re not, it’s not, there’s not animosity. It’s not us versus them. It becomes the we much quicker when you can look at that. But we had the beauty of an image and we had that story to be able to tell. And so for me, it was, just accelerated pulling everyone together to be one team. And it also accelerated at least from the known stakeholders. The adoption of the new combined brand.

Bennie

Yeah, I think it’s really powerful. That’s what you talked about. You found an asset here. You found a memory. You unearthed a story that gave you kind of a shared foundational currency. And you talk about shared past, but really what it feels like it leans into, which is think even more important, is here’s your way forward for a shared future. Right? Because that’s what it’s about in the space of this is where we come from, but you’re really galvanizing them to what’s next and where are we going?

Melissa 

Exactly. And you can do that with every time you have, whether it’s a merger acquisition or bringing groups together, you can do that and focus and search for those commonalities. Because otherwise we know a lot of times, especially when you have two dramatically different marketing departments, that means you have two dramatically different voices and all of that and kind of who wins out. When you get to that us and that shared vision sooner, it’s always much more successful.

Bennie

Right. Well, I’ll ask you this fun question that I more times than I can count in the capacity as head of the American Marketing Association. People always want to know who comes up with the market names for all of the pharmaceuticals.

And I asked that question out loud because I get asked all the time and I pause and then you think about all of the names kind of writ large of all the products that we see being advertised and you just kind of go along with it. And for those who are listening, Melissa is shaking her head to the rhythm of me talking. Yes.

Melissa 

Yeah, I’ve never been that person to come up with those, but I respect those who do because that is a tough job and there is no winning. We all know when you’re coming up with product names just for anything, branding, anything, there’s a lot of kind of armchair quarterbacks that are all gonna take a pot shot. But for those, when you’re talking pharmaceuticals, I don’t think there’s any winning.

Bennie 

Yes. It’s just you hope you’re effectively delivering and that you’re not, you don’t become the butt of the joke in the moment, right? But so many spaces in there. I love to ask that question with someone who’s in the healthcare space because we all get that smile of like, yes, I know you’re thinking it. This is a space that goes into it. But when you think about marketing as a profession, those are the fun moments, right? Those are the no win fun moments. Talk a bit about

Melissa

Exactly.

Bennie

you know, how you manage the challenging moments when you have a really serious brand and you really serious work that’s happening. How do you continue to build a resilient team in the face of marketing challenges?

Melissa 

I think that’s something everyone in marketing faces. And it’s a little bit because we are that shared service and because we have an awful lot of armchair marketers, if you will. And for me, it’s a couple of different things. One thing that has helped a lot to get through those challenges is leaning into the data. And I feel like for me,

Bennie 

Right, right. Right.

Melissa 

the sort of historic adversarial relationship between marketing and finance. I’ve seen that go away in recent years when we can tell that story with the data, when we can show the ROI, when we can speak the finance language. So that for me set aside a lot of the those internal challenges. But what I do know is that the marketing team, because marketing is very high profile and is responsible for you know, lot of revenue in most organizations and is doing creative things that marketing is in the center and gets a lot of the blame, maybe not all the glory. And so for me, it’s really about how do you build the words you use was resilience and how do you build that resiliency in the team? How do you create a strong team that really feels true to the work they’re doing and has their own sort of true north that they’re working toward. For me, that’s just gets into a lot of just leadership 101. How do you grow people that feel respected and feel happy and challenged? And so for me, that’s what I’ve always kind of, I always strive to do is to make sure that the team knows they’re a team, that the team feels recognized, appreciated, and they feel challenged within kind of amongst themselves. And I’ve done this, I’ve had some amazing teams that I’ve worked in over the years, because the team sort of needs to know you need to be a little bulletproof because people are not going to like your creative or they’re not going to look at the results and say, well, this was marketing’s fault or what have you. There’s always something like that. And I do speak about that a lot in my book, because that’s just reality of being in marketing. You don’t get people don’t give potshots to the finance team and say you did a bad job on this budget. That’s just how it works. But with marketing people, think less so now that we’ve become so much more data driven. So it’s not just someone saying, well, you should use red instead of blue because you can test it. You can show the data. It’s a different world than it used to be. So it’s lessened, but I think more than any other, I won’t say more than any other, but marketing is one of can be one of the most stressful roles just because of a lot of that. And that’s where for me having that strong team, building that resiliency, that understanding that marketing is a team sport, we’re all in this together. I think that just helps more than anything. And beyond that, I’m a huge fan of recognition of the whole team because marketing is a team sport. There might be one person, could be me, could be someone else who’s the figurehead, but there’s all these different functions behind you. And that’s where we need to really make sure in marketing, we’re recognizing everybody because everybody has a part in it.

Bennie

Definitely. I’m gonna ask you this other question because it really speaks to you your leadership and your thought leadership story you started with the experience with the ideas and then an article led to an article led to an interview and Then you’re at the book and you’re continuously growing and continuously evolving. So I’m gonna ask you this question What would be one lesson you would add? to harnessing purpose now that you’ve put it out in the world and it’s

You’ve sat with it for a period of time. What’s the next chapter? What would you add? Knowing what you’ve learned since.

Melissa

So I think for me, I’d like to speak a little bit more directly to the CEOs and the founders and the non-marketers about the value of marketing. think that was something I tried to speak to, especially startup founders, so that they understand as they’re developing their organization, their mission, vision, values, and their brand, that they need to make sure that they…sort of weave their values throughout everything they do. But I’d like to speak to the kind of the CEO types, CEO, CFOs. That would be one thing directly to them on the value of marketing in general. I’ve done some writing and some podcasts speaking to founders of startups where they never think about marketing right away, but reminding them that they really should think about marketing from day one because then you’re putting the customer first, you’re getting correct product market fit, all of those things. But that will be the one thing I think, and I think there’s definitely a follow on book because I think there’s an opportunity to speak to people like the CEOs, not just the marketers themselves.

Bennie

Mm-hmm. Right. Well, count us in to continue this conversation when you have the second volume to come out. think if I ask one little tidbit of advice for our marketers who are working that moment of pushing for purpose, what encouragement would you give them today?

Melissa

I think I mentioned it before, but I would encourage people to really look at themselves and decide what is their why, what gets them going, what gets them excited, and then seek out opportunities to get your own personal flywheel going. Because it’s a long journey. I think about all the different chapters of my career and it has evolved over time.

But I’ve continually sought out opportunities that get me excited, that I find fulfillment in. And at the end of the day, I can say I’m really proud of. And so that’s really where I would encourage people, know, take those five minutes to really start to think about what’s your why, what’s your purpose, what gets you going? And that will just make you a better marketer. It’ll make your communications better. And we know that when we really align all of our marketing, efforts with our values, our personal values, our company’s values. I know we’re creating better relationships and more impact with our customers.

Bennie 

What a great way to close our conversation. Sitting here leading with clarity, creativity, and conviction. Melissa, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you all for listening to this episode in our Purpose series of AMAs Marketing / And. Thank you, Melissa, for inspiring our conversation. And thank you all for joining our podcast. If you want to learn more about purpose and harnessing it, please check out Melissa’s book, Harnessing Purpose, A Marketer’s Guide to Inspiring Connections. And please continue to follow AMA, both in our communities and on AMA.org. Thank you.