In This Episode
Lerzan Aksoy, Ph.D., Gabelli School of Business, Fordham University joins AMA’s Bennie F. Johnson to talk about her academic journey in marketing, how she is helping to encourage the next generation of marketers to be lifelong learners, and the importance of relationships.
Featuring >
- Lerzan Aksoy, Ph.D.
- Bennie F. Johnson
Transcript
Bennie F. Johnson
Hello. And thank you for joining us for our New York City live episodes of AMA Marketing / And I’m your host and a CEO. Benn ie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we explore life through a marketing lens. We look at unexpected moments that have been shaped by marketing. We have incredible guests today and our next joining us is the dean of the Bradley School of Business at Fordham University.
None other than our colleague and friend Lerzan Askoy. Lerzan, and is really a marketing force of nature. I have to announce that she is the 2022 recipient of the American Marketing Association’s Christopher Lovelock Career Contributions to the Services Discipline Award for teaching, research and service that has had the greatest long term impact on the discipline.
This is the highest award honor presented in the field of service marketing. She is also an author of the New York Times bestseller The Wallet Allocation Rule. She serves as the Dean and chair Professor of Marketing at Fordham’s Gabelli Business School. Lerzan is also a member and leader of our AMA Academic Council. Thank you for joining us today.
Lerzan Aksoy
Thank you. Very wonderful to be here.
Bennie
So it’s so much fun to have you here as a part of our New York Stories Live conversation. And you lead one of the top business schools in the world, but also right here in New York. Tell us a bit about your journey. You know, we don’t often have conversations with the deans of the business school. So this is kind of a fun space to begin. Tell us a bit about how you came into marketing and academic leadership.
Lerzan
So I’m going to go back way back. I’m originally from Turkey, but I was actually born in Santiago in Chile. I lived there for a few years, moved on to Mexico, lived there for two years. I lived in Jordan for two years, in Amman, Pakistan for seven years. That’s where I graduated from high school, from a Catholic high school there.
And only then did I come back to my home country, Turkey, where I did my undergrad. And the story about me becoming a marketing professor is really interesting, because it was a marketing class that I took and a professor of mine that really influenced me and said, this is what I want to do. And, so that’s what I did.
I came to the United States on the Fulbright program, finished my MBA, PhD, and then went back to Turkey and started my academic career there, at Koch University. And then, of course, seven years later, I met my husband, who was here in New Jersey, and so I moved back to the United States and I’ve been at Fordham University for 16 years.
I initially started as a faculty member in marketing, but then when the two schools that we had the undergraduate school and graduate school unified under the Gabelli School of Business umbrella, I was asked to join as the associate dean of the undergraduate program, which I said, yes, I’ll do it for three years. And then that ended up, of course, becoming seven years.
But I just loved the work, and I loved the institution and what it stands for. And when our dean stepped down, I stepped in as interim dean. And I was announced in January 1st, 2023. So that’s the story. Yeah.
Bennie
So when you think about kind of your journey, let’s think about the journey of the students. So how have you seen college students in marketing students change over the last 16 years? What was the biggest noticeable change that you’ve seen?
Lerzan
There’s a big change. And, I would say that, you know, in those days, marketing students would say, I want to do marketing because there are no numbers in it, and it’s a creative space. Which is still true, right? Marketing is still a very, very creative discipline and function.
Bennie
But we have some numbers for them.
Lerzan
Oh, definitely. So we open up their eyes to, to the reality that marketing is actually a very numbers driven, right, area and space and that they really need to understand that they have to understand predictive analytics. They have to be able to understand data driven marketing, what consumer insights is. So I would say that the biggest change that I’ve seen over the past, say, ten years, is that change from just seeing it as an area that’s more creative or primarily creative, and for people who are not good with numbers, right, right to being a space where those two, areas and skill sets actually align.
Bennie
So when we think about kind of our Gen Z and verging on gen alpha students who are coming in space, there’s a different expectation for what marketing can mean in their lives. How I’ve talked a bit about what you’ve experienced in the conversations you’re having now about marketing and its impact in our world.
Lerzan
Yes. I so one of the great privileges of being an academic and also Dean, is because you get to spend time with the new generation that is being recruited by all of those organizations out there. And, one of the things that I notice is that Gen Z is very, very cognizant of societal impacts.
Bennie
Right.
Lerzan
And, climate change, and sustainability. And we’re actually in the middle of New York and, you know, UN General Assembly happens right here. And very soon we’ll be talking about how much progress have we actually made towards those goals. Right. And so what I see in our students is that they want to bring in that purpose, right. And work that matters with their careers and passions.
Bennie
So how have you seen that impact the curriculum and their approach to teaching and learning for what the students are interested in and what they need to move forth in careers?
Lerzan
So I would say that, one of the big changes that’s happened since 2022 and business schools is a CSB, which is our big accredited agency, has put in a requirement that all business schools need to demonstrate societal impact. It has become part of the accreditation for all business schools that want to receive that. So it’s not just the business world that’s creating that change.
You know, the business roundtable and stakeholder theory. And we need to make sure that we’re caring for all of our constituents. But also that has been a push towards business schools. And the way that is brought to life is, in what we teach and also how we teach it, because part of this also is about compassion, right?
Generating compassion and empathy and being a good storyteller. I think that one of the great things about marketing is that we are a community, right, of people, that we know how to build community. We are integrated and we’re storytellers. So I think that makes us even, much more able to and capable to bring that idea of societal impact into, into business.
Bennie
You know, one of the things that I appreciate has been also your commitment to volunteer leadership and service and commitment to our collegiate community. So, you know, right now the work you’ve done is impacted our and the collegiate community. We were just talking earlier that we just crossed the 10,000 student member mark. Earlier this week.
Lerzan
Yeah.
Bennie
So talk a bit about what inspires you to work with other colleges and professors and building the next generation of marketers.
Lerzan
I would say, well, first, congratulations and kudos to AMA for crossing that 10,000 mark. I mean, can you imagine all of these students across the country? It’s quite amazing. I’ve been a big fan of AMA for many, many years and have been proud to serve in many capacities, and what really motivates me is seeing these future leaders of our world, of our business and instilling in them this sort of idea that they can actually make a big difference.
Bennie
Right.
Lerzan
Through their work. And no matter what they do, even if they’re doing finance or marketing or working on Wall Street, that they can make a difference with whatever they do and the career paths that they pursue.
Bennie
It’s interesting we talk about the way in which marketing can show up. I was at a university this past week, and it was blown away that the student chapter chair wasn’t a marketing major. They were a finance major who love marketing. Yes. And finding a way and still having a career in finance. But they wanted it to be influenced by marketing, and especially now, I still think they’re a marketer at heart.
Lerzan
Yes, I think so. So that’s one of the great things about an education where you can actually mix and match things. Right. I do think that one of the key things that’s changing over time is that the boundaries are blurring between industries, between disciplines, between functions. And you have to be able to understand and integrate what the finance area or finance function. And the people in that space are thinking to be able to do your job in marketing and vice versa. So, I think that that’s definitely one of the big, big things that we emphasize, especially at the Gabelli School with what we call our integrated core.
Bennie
So when you think about this next generation of marketers who are on the launchpad in the university programs, whether two year, four year or grad spaces, what advice do you have for them, the challenges that they’re going to face?
Lerzan
I tell them that they need to be lifelong learners, right? Because the speed at which things are changing is just very, very quick. And so keeping up, being curious, making sure that they understand and learn what’s happening in the marketplace is something that’s key. And especially technology. I mean, how can we have a podcast without mentioning AI, right?
Bennie
Or you get the prize for being the first one to mention AI? Yes.
Lerzan
You know, AI is clearly going to revolutionize so many different areas, including marketing and it and it is so how do we make sure that the students understand what those changes are and become lifelong learners? But it’s also on the faculty side. So as a dean of a business school, it’s really important for me as and my team to be able to help and support our faculty members because they are the ones in the classroom, right?
They are the ones delivering the education. They are the ones that are building the skills that our students need. And so one of the things that, as an example I’ve done at Gabelli School is launched, this AI initiative, which we’re bringing in, the chief learning officer of some of the top, big four companies to help our faculty. To upskill, reskill, and to be closer to industry and practitioners. So we’re connecting them to externships with those who are doing the work. Right, and what’s happening on the ground so that they can then bring that information. What is happening in marketing, what’s happening, accounting to the classroom?
Bennie
I think it’s really incredible that you’re doing something that shortens that distance between practice happening here and policy over here and learning here. How do we bring this all together when you talk to new MBA students, what are they looking for when they come into a program? Now, what’s kind of top of mind?
Lerzan
So our MBA students, compared to our undergrads, there are professionals in there. They’ve had some a few years under their belt, when they come to the program. But they too are looking for a meaningful and fulfilling career. Right? Some of them want to switch, some of them want to kick off their career in a different space.
And so it really is about finding that sort of fulfilling career path, the way they can make a living. But at the same time, have that, that purpose.
Bennie
So you’ve had a chance to write author several articles and books and space. I love to get a glimpse into your mind. What topic are you considering next? What are you thinking about? What’s capturing your imagination when you think about marketing and the future and strategy?
Lerzan
So my research has really evolved over time. And I started my career, working on loyalty. Right. And I’m a big believer in the importance of relationships, both to our happiness and to our success. And it’s with other people that we succeed and that we are happy. And so I continue to work in that realm.
And my second book was about why loyalty matters. Right? You know, as an employee, you know, why is it important to have those bonds and relationships and why is it important to have those in our friendships? And so that’s evolved into now, more social innovation. And, we just had actually a paper published in the Journal of Marketing called Social Profit Orientation. And what are the ways in which or what can we learn from organizations that are really doing a good job benefiting society and apply that to other organizations for profit and profit? So that’s really, I would say, where the next, next path and, and the future looks for me in terms of.
Bennie
Interest and interest in space and kind of bringing us back to the business school. So where does the university and business school fit in this space when we think about loyalty, community and engagement?
Lerzan
Yes. There are many challenges right now that universities are facing. Right? There’s a public perception of distrust. Is a university education really worth it? There’s issues of enrollment and demographic. Cliff. So our undergraduate population in 2025, there will be fewer students who will actually be college age and going to college. So how do we ensure that we’re dealing with that and potential enrollment fluctuations? But there’s also this idea of how can universities have sustainable business models.
Bennie
Right?
Lerzan
Because costs are going up, you know, year over year with inflation and the cost of living, you know, it’s 3 or 4%. And we already have tapped out in terms of tuition that many institutions. And, so how do we make sure that we have affordable educational models that have cost of delivery and sort of a lower, lower rate, and make it accessible for a greater number of students? And of course, mental health is another issue. So I would say both faculty burnout, staff burnout, and of course, student mental health anxiety is at an all time high right now at higher ed institutions.
Bennie
So in the business programs, are you considering new models of exchange and learning?
Lerzan
Yes, I think we have to, and I believe that the future is all about closely partnering, partnering with industry.
Bennie
Right.
Lerzan
And building alliances. And it’s not that we haven’t really done that as business schools in the past, but I think we need to really think more innovatively about how to provide value and make it into a win-win. Right. So it can’t be this, you know, one sided exchange where, one, one part, one party is winning and the other one isn’t. But I think that that’s the future model.
Bennie
So we recently had an episode where we actually talked about some of the tension between your responsibility as a learner, as a practitioner, the responsibility of the company and industry, and then responsibility of the the institution of higher learning and how we can find ways in which that triangle works in a more productive and dynamic way. You know, when we think about the students who are coming in, what’s the percentage of marketing students that are coming into your business program now?
Bennie
How is this a growing percentage?
Lerzan
It’s I would say that, of the students coming in, half of our students are finance students.
Bennie
Okay.
Lerzan
And of course, being a university based in New York, that makes a lot of sense, right? This is the finance capital. And also, to be honest, you know, there are some students who are weighing and it is, of course, about passion, but they’re also weighing their pros and cons of, you know, how much am I going to make when I graduate?
And some students, you know, tend to go into finance because it’s a passion, but also because the pay is also a little higher and they feel a responsibility to their families, to all of the student debt that they have to be able to cover it. And I would say that the second largest major is accounting and then marketing and then digital media and technology.
So that would be the rank order.
Bennie
If you would, if you were to think about kind of our modern marketing education and use. Phil Kotler is for piece. What would you think about where are we in terms of understanding in terms of pricing? Product placement and promotion?
Lerzan
Do you mean for, for products.
Bennie
For actual just for marketing? For marketing as an education?
Lerzan
Education.
Bennie
Marketing.
Lerzan
So I would say that we have a lot of work to do on the pricing piece, for sure. But also in the promotion piece, because I think that the value of university education is being questioned now, and I’m not entirely sure whether institutions of higher education are doing a really good job of being able to articulate the value of education, and being able to sort of push back on that.
So I think the promotion piece, and also the pricing piece are certainly things we can, we can work on or be better.
Bennie
And you talked a little bit about the product and thinking about how we change the curriculum and the student engagement. I think also with it, if you were offering advice to other academic leaders like yourself for the next two, three, four years, what encouragement would you give them?
Lerzan
So I would say that the future of marketing is full of opportunities. I’m very excited about the future. For students, I would say be proactive in learning and be adaptable to change. That’s what I would say for our student listeners, for faculty and faculty maybe too, tuning in as well. I know, work even more closely than ever with industry practitioners.
That’s what I would say, because it’s just everything is changing so fast. We have to keep up. And for industry practitioners, you know, our graduates today, as I mentioned, the Gen Z, they’re looking for work that matters. So how can we tie in, that work to the passions and what Gen Z is looking for? Because we want to increase engagement.
We want to reduce turnover. So I would just sort of say the secret of change is to focus all of your energy not on fighting the old, but on building the new. And that’s from Socrates, he said at 300 BC. But I think it’s even more relevant now than ever. So I would say that the most exciting days are ahead of us.
Bennie
I can’t think of a better way to end our episode. The most exciting days are ahead of us. We have an opportunity. It’s the best time ever to be in marketing and wisdom from 3000 years still holds. Yes. Thank you to there for being with us today. And thank you all for joining us for this episode of AMA marketing.
Lerzan
And thank you very much.