Transcript

Bennie F Johnson 

Hello, and thank you for joining us for this episode of AMA’s Marketing And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we explore life through a marketing lens, delving into conversations of individuals that flourish at an intersection of marketing and the unexpected. Through our series, we’ll introduce you to the visionaries whose stories you might not yet have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to.

Through our thought provoking conversations, we unravel the challenges, triumphs, and pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing. It’s really fun today as a big soccer fan to have our guest, Radhika Duggal. Radhika serves as the chief marketing officer for Major League Soccer, MLS, and Soccer United Marketing. Previously, before joining MLS, she served as CMO in the fintech and e-commerce company Super.

She brings an accomplished record leading multidisciplinary marketing and creative teams to drive growth across diverse range of companies and industries. Her experience is really incredibly valuable and varied and includes managing marketing functions at Fortune 100 companies like JP Morgan Chase, Pfizer, startups and the management consulting firm Deloitte. My friend, welcome to our conversation. Thank you for joining

Radhika Duggal 

Thank you so much for having me.

Bennie 

So we’re going to start off with, know, what drew you in to Major League Soccer? I know in our careers we have gravity that kind of extends beyond what we planned that draws us in. You’ve had such a varied experience from consulting and fintech and Pfizer. What drew you to Major League Soccer.

Radhika 

I would say there are two things that drew me in. But even ahead of that, it’s just if I took a step back and paused, how could you say no to the role of being the chief marketing officer at this organization? That’s the first question. And so that’s the first orientation. But then when I had the opportunity to go through the interview process and meet so many of the folks on the team, I learned two things.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right. Right,

Radhika 

Number one, the league has incredible tailwinds behind it. This is the moment where we have the opportunity to take advantage of so many incredible consumer behavior, fandom trends that are just taking the league on an exciting growth and trajectory path. And I think that’s very cool. And particularly for someone who’s worked in different stages of businesses, that’s really exciting. It’s always more fun to be in the growth stage business that is an established league, it’s growing, that’s wonderful. But the most important thing was actually, as I was meeting people through the interview process, people were amazing. People were humble, they were kind, and they were passionate about what they did. And for me, like the most important thing is I wanna spend my time with people that I want to be around, whom I can learn from. And this place has that in spades.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. It’s interesting, now, one of our first questions we were talking earlier and I asked you what was top of mind. The first thing you said were your people. And that really stood out to me with all the things you could have brought up about the work and the business. You really focused it focused in on the people that are helping you deliver this space. Talk a bit about your philosophy for taking care of your teams.

Radhika 

Yeah, I mean, I’ll say people are everything, right? Like as a CMO, I do literally nothing myself, which I think is actually like a very interesting thing. Like as you get more senior, you do less and less yourself. And so the most important thing is making sure, and the whole job is making sure you’re enabling the people on the team.

If you start with that orientation as that is the single most important thing, then how you do that is the question. And for me, think there’s a couple of things. First and foremost, you know, and the jury’s out, like I’m interested if you were to ask some of the folks on my team whether this is true or not. But because that’s the real judge. But for me, it’s really important to make sure that the people on my team feel valued, that they know I value them.

And that they value each other. And we find and make intentional ways of showing that. So that shows up in making sure I say thank you as many times as possible, making sure I share their work with others in the organization, particularly sharing up with my boss or his boss, making sure people really understand the value the team delivers. That’s among the most important things.

Bennie

Mm-hmm.

Radhika 

You know, a really big part of my people leadership philosophy is I’ve got to be available and enable people instead of the other way around. So I don’t necessarily expect my team to rearrange their schedule. For me, it’s actually got to be the other way around because they’re the ones doing the work. And if they’re waiting on me, I’m essentially wasting their time. And I think.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Radhika 

That’s maybe slightly different from how some of the other leaders I’ve worked with in four have operated. But I really feel like my role is to enable my team and I’ve got to be bending over backwards to make sure they have what they

Bennie 

Right. Because that really becomes the art and the creative magic of the role when you’re a CMO. I was going to ask the question because as we elevate in marketing, you get further and further from the ad or the production or the campaign and those things that kind of drew us into marketing and the management of the people who are doing those things becomes really your art. How do you cope with not jumping in and tweaking the campaign or being in the creative brainstorming session to give that space for your team to really.

Radhika 

You know, I’ll say a couple of things. I’ll say, number one, every leader that I’ve ever met, including myself, has the development opportunity to get out of the weeds. And that’s ok. So I will raise my hand and recognize that that’s on my list of development opportunities. I think, though, what’s really interesting about being new to an industry is I’m very cognizant of the fact that there are some things I’m really great.

But I don’t yet, I’m three months in, right? I don’t yet have the nuanced understanding of the industry and the players and the clubs that, for example, our head of brand has who spent 15 years working in soccer. So one of the things that I hope, and I hope he would say this is true as well, that keeps me from jumping in and saying, hey, let’s do it this way is I have deep, deep respect for the fact that I bring a set of skills to this organization.

So do the people around me. And they tend to sometimes be different skills. And I want to be really deferential and respectful of the fact that we’ve got experts on our team. We had a fully functioning team before I joined, and I gotta let them do their work and make their magic because that’s how we’re gonna be successful.

Bennie 

You know, one of the things that was really exciting for us was to talk to you in this moment, right? In that moment of newness as you come in and bring those skills to the table. I love that idea of you being open to learning what’s going around, what’s happening, but then being able to bring the other skills. So when you think about your marketing career journey, are there things that come to the top of mind that you feel like you’re bringing from your past experience that are kind of traveling with

Radhika

Yeah, I would say a couple of things. So first and foremost, as you know, I have the opportunity to teach consumer behavior at NYU. So I’m like a little bit of a human behavior kind of nerd. And I’m

Bennie 

Yes. I was just gonna say you were, but you said it first, so.

Radhika 

I’m really fascinated by how people make decisions and why they do the things they do. And at the end of the day, as a marketer, that’s the whole job is to understand consumer behavior of your target customer, understand why they make decisions, how they form attitudes, and make sure you can use that understanding to get them to form favorable attitudes for your product and make the decision you want them to make, like a purchase decision or a loyalty decision.

Consumer behavior orientation with grounding in frameworks and science tends to be something that I tend to bring to an organization or a team. And I really try to make sure that there’s some of these frameworks are not the most current, I really believe they’re, meaning they were created in 1960 or 1980, but they still hold, the science still holds. And I try really hard to bring that orientation of let’s at a framework. Let’s not start from scratch and let’s use that to guide our thought process and then come out with the right creative or the right process based on that understanding of the

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Which really gives you a kind of battle -tested point to jump out, a point of departure that then you can riff on, right? And you can kind of think about the work that you have.

Radhika

Think it gives you a starting point. Like oftentimes when you’re given a problem or you’re trying to create an approach, you don’t know where to start. None of us have to start from scratch because we had scientists who did that job for us. And so I think sometimes it’s just, it gives you a way to frame your thinking. And oftentimes that’s just the jumping off point that you need.

Bennie 

You know, I want to ask this question. You’re the first guest that I could really ask this question to. You’re dynamically a practicing marketing executive leader while also serving as a senior marketing lecturer and professor. How do you find energy or a balance or the creative tensions between teaching in the classroom and leading and teaching in your nine to five?

Radhika 

Yeah, so I think the balance comes with timing. My boss at Chase said something very smart to me. She said, you can have it all, just not all the time or at same time. And she said that to me in a different context. But I really think that that’s right. And so what I try to be really careful about doing is choosing when I teach. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t, because I don’t always get to choose.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right. This is the right, right?

Radhika 

But for example, I try to teach one class a year. Prior to having my daughter, I would have taught more like three or four classes a year. But, you know, now I realize that there’s another thing that takes precedence and takes time. I try to schedule that one class to the extent I have a say to be in a time period that makes sense. So for example, my next class is January through March, Friday and Saturday

Bennie 

Okay

Radhika

And it’s eight sessions. I’ve got a year’s notice. I can plan for the content and curriculum. And I’m going to show up knowing I have a babysitter at home who my daughter loves. And then I’m going to be in the classroom knowing that I’ve got what is like 24 hours of class time to have the best experience with the 30 or 40 students and create the most engaging curriculum for them. I’m going to make it a thing I enjoy because

Bennie 

Right.

Radhika 

I want to make it a thing that students enjoy, but that requires focus, that requires planning, and because of the way NYU, which is where I teach, is structured, they enable me to have that focus.

Bennie 

So I’m going to ask you two questions as youth and energy and perspective being a driver for our creativity. What’s something you’ve learned from your students and what’s one thing you’ve learned from your daughter?

Radhika 

So many things. Ok, so one thing I’ll tell you is I used to and I need to do this again, actually. I used to have a Gen Z mentor. So I used to teach undergrad. I stopped teaching undergrad in I think like 2020 around then. And now I teach in the exec MBA program. But when I was teaching undergrad, I would ask one student, every semester to literally like be my Gen Z mentor and talk to me about culture and things that Gen Z folks do. Because listen, like I haven’t been, I’m not in that generation. I haven’t been that age in a very long time. And at that time, the products that I were working on were student focused. And I learned just so much about how people spend their time. Like this young woman knew like take me out with her friends to lunch and I get to talk to all of them in a second impromptu focus group and I would ask them at the time I worked in banking, how do you think about money and how do you think about finance? And I learned so much just content from them. From my daughter, I learned a lot more like life lessons. And I think the biggest life lesson I’ve learned from my daughter is I should shape every action I take through the lens of what I want her to see me show up in this way. So I’ve learned how to be very thoughtful and very intentional in all of my actions because I want to make sure, I want to make her proud, really, at the end of the day. I want to make sure I’m doing the things every day very intentionally to get to that place.

Bennie

So what brings you the most excitement and joy in the role?

Radhika 

I think it always goes back to the people. The best moments I’ve had so far at MLS, outside of getting to go to matches, outside of getting to go to our All-Star game and spending a week with my team in Columbus, outside of that is actually getting to watch my team share their work, sort of upwarding throughout the organization. There’s nothing better than getting to watch your team make an impact.

And getting to watch them share with the organization how their thinking has led to an outcome that’s better or different. That’s the thing I get the most joy out

Bennie 

So as Chief Marketing Officer for a league, our worlds have a lot in common with running somewhat of a federated model, where you have a space in which you have multiple brands that are all connected together. What have you found to be the most challenging for you to think about all the various teams and their brands and your master brand support and how you manage that with creativity and clarity?

Radhika 

You know, I’m so early in my journey here that I think the most challenging thing for me is to meet all of the other club heads of marketing, not once, but multiple times, because I think at the end of the day.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm, right,

Radhika 

Any work or outcome or next step has to stem from an understanding of not only our brand, but the brands of all 29 soon to be 30 of our clubs. And so I’d say early on in my tenure, it’s literally having the conversations, carving out time, not to do it once. And by the way, I’m still on the first time, like I’m on the first go round, but to do it a second time and then a third time and to get into a rhythm and cadence so

Bennie 

Right, right.

Radhika 

We become partners. I really hope over time we don’t have these like air structured formal introduction, Rodica, head of marketing here, right? That’s good and that’s needed for the first time, but I want us to become partners and I want them to be able to text me and I want to be able to text them and want to be problem solving together. So I think it’s just so early on, the biggest challenge is making relationships and getting to know people.

Bennie 

Right. But I think, you know, when we talk about your success and your approach, people in the relationships, it just shines through, right? It’s time through everything you’re thinking about and doing. Let’s talk about people and relationships with the sport itself. We were just remarking of just how much energy has been driven around soccer in the American context over the last generation. That, you know, soccer was the secondary sport in many communities in space and now is the number one driver in terms of youth participation, boys and girls, in terms of community space in there. Talk a bit about what do you think is next in terms of this kind of sports cultural adoption?

Radhika

You know, I am very hopeful that adoption of soccer continues to grow, particularly in the US and then throughout North America. And what I hope happens is that folks find soccer to be an inclusive sport. They find us, and I think we are, the numbers are, they speak for themselves, an inclusive league, a group of folks

Bennie 

Right?

Radhika 

A group of players that kids can look up to, not just at the professional sort of first league level, but we have we have next pro and we have next. We have a number of leagues that have role models for children. And I think having someone to look up to, have it in building community around that is a really important thing for children. And that’s how they see themselves sort of growing and learning the lessons around us. So I think that the sports only got a ton of headway and a ton of room to grow and to your point, start it starts with fandom being formed at an early age.

Bennie 

Right. It becomes a part of your community experience. I think we were talking before when, yeah, that this becomes something that you gel around and you can build. One of the things that’s really dynamic is soccer in the US becomes a generative safe space for all communities to come together. Right? The kind of

Radhika 

Yeah, new family experience.

That’s what I like. You can see that our league has such diversity in the makeup of our player base. You can see that our goal, if you look at what the Insidium product is, you look at our season pass product, our goal is so much to bring everyone in and to be welcoming to everyone, no matter who you are. And, you know, that is our job. Our job is to continue to build on that over time and make sure that we have the infrastructure to grow the sport.

Bennie 

Right. So when you think about it, as you’re it’s a big idea, right, to have to champion soccer in the American context. And with Major League Soccer and your role, you do a lot with partners and partnerships. Describe what you look for and what you encourage in your partnership relationships. What do you look for for someone who wants to partner with your

Radhika 

You we’re essentially looking for folks who are going to help us build our brand given the elements that we want to see out in the world, right? So we look for like -minded partners who also want to elevate the sport, have a passion for the sport, and who want to show up in the ways that we want to show up in the world. So that inclusivity, that belonging, those things are very important to us. We’re also really fortunate to have partners with incredible reach.

Bennie 

Right. Mm-hmm.

Radhika 

And the ability to influence the growth of the sport. And that’s so important to us because we do really think of soccer as a way to drive inclusion in the world. And we want to work with partners to sort of bring out that message.

Bennie

Right. You know, when you think about the partnerships and space in there, what are some of the unexpected things that have come up in partners? I think we’ve grown up in a space in which we’ve seen sports in partnerships and brands for years, but now, soccer has always had dynamic activations and engagements. What are some of the things that you’re looking at that are kind of unexpected?

Radhika

You know, I’m, I’ll be completely honest, I’m three months into my role. So I’ll say that I haven’t had the like, look out kind of moment quite yet. I will tell you what’s really interesting is I’ve also, I’ve spent a lot of my career on the other side. And so for example, when I have the opportunity to work at JP Morgan Chase, we would try to activate the partners like PagerLeague Soccer or like various athletes. And, and I

Bennie 

Right, right.

Radhika 

Rather than there being a surprising moment, what I’ve found in those situations, and I imagine it applies on both sides of the table, is that the thing that makes a partnership successful is the focus on the end consumer. It’s not a focus on my goal as the brand manager or my goal as the CMO of the sports league. It’s focused on the consumer.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right.

Radhika 

And I think if both parties can focus on activating around what is important for the consumer, and by the way, have deep knowledge of the consumer, like it starts with an understanding, that’s how these relationships are really successful.

Bennie

Right, right. I think it’s so true and having that bigger focus helps you drive and build your agenda, your objectives. So it becomes seamless to your brand and your

Radhika 

Yeah, it makes sense, If you’re both focused on the same consumer, you both have the same understanding and you both want to help the consumer by driving some value to

Bennie 

So we started our conversation with my simple question of what brought you to Major League Soccer. But my real question after our listeners have had a chance to hear some of your stories and experience, what brought you to marketing?

Radhika

Yeah. So I attended an undergraduate business school and we can talk about why I did that if that’s interesting. But at the time there were like six majors. It was things like finance, accounting, actuarial sciences, statistics. And the one and only major there that didn’t seem incredibly focused on one track was marketing. Marketing seemed like it was both left brain and right brain. It required data and it required

Bennie 

Right. Okay.

Radhika

And that was really interesting and appealing to me. And then I said, so I’m going to go do this major because it’s the only one that seems to enable you to think across the spectrum. And as I was taking marketing classes, I realized, like I should probably just go try out this thing in the real world. So I started doing internships from the time I was a freshman. And I just loved it. Like every internship I had throughout college,

Most of them were unpaid and I would have done it for free forever because they were so fun and they were so fun because it was all about understanding the customer and telling, oftentimes telling stories about that customer. And I just have a passion for understanding people. And I think this is the discipline, maybe one of the few disciplines where you can take that understanding of people and use it to drive business.

Bennie 

Right. Right. Right, and really in such meaningful and powerful ways. So you kind of move from there and when did you realize that you had an interest or a talent for teaching?

Radhika 

2013 is when I started teaching. I think it was like a bit of a fluke. It was like right place, right time. I started, I had been a guest lecturer in a friend’s class at Baruch College. And I think that the head of the department sat in on her class on the seat, like you, you’re evaluated by the department head at some period of time. And I think he thought she was teaching and that was like a guest day. And so,

Bennie 

Okay.

Radhika 

That was unbeknownst to me a couple of weeks later, three weeks before the next semester. I’m sorry, three days before the next semester was to start. This person I had not met messaged me and said, would you like to teach intro to ADV? That was the whole message. That was actually in the subject line. And I was like, who is this person? is ADV? So it turns out over time, I was able to figure out what that message was. And right place, right time. I said, sure. I have no curriculum. I have no experience.

Bennie 

Right. Right. 

Radhika 

Three days before the semester is gonna start. I’m gonna say yes and I’m gonna figure it out. And it was the coolest thing I had the opportunity to do. And it still remains to this day, the most energizing thing I have the opportunity to do. You learn so much by being surrounded by other people and just getting to talk about marketing. It is the best.

Bennie 

Yes. Right. It’s so, you we’re going to make that our commercial for teaching about marketing because it is so true and being open to just saying yes, right? That puts you in the space and has that kind of dynamic energy, which you can see reinforces what you do during your nine to five, then reinforces what you’re teaching on the weekends.

Radhika 

That’s right. That’s right. And it’s just a different way of looking at things. Being a professor enables you to think about the work you do and share it through a different lens. And oftentimes it’s a reflection point. You get to reflect on it, I did this. Did it work? What would I have done differently? What was painful in the process? And it’s just like a really nice reflection point as well.

Bennie 

Well, this is really kind of an interesting space. Thinking about you teaching on the executive level now as you transition from undergrad to the executive MBAs, we’re kind of in the mix. What advice do you give to those who are shaping a career? You’ve had a chance to be in a lot of different industries, which I love it. Likewise, I’ve been in and out of different industries and it gives you such a rich toolkit and point of view as you go forward. But what advice would you have for our newly minted?

MBAs and master’s degrees in marketing and executive program grads, what advice would you give as they start their careers?

Radhika

I would say particularly for folks that are interested in marketing, think about the broad spectrum of marketing and try all the different facets of it. I think very often there’s this myth that marketers are either artists or scientists.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Radhika 

If you know what you’re interested in and you’re only interested in one thing, then great. The world needs specialists. But if you want to be a CMO, it’s really advantageous to understand the full spectrum of the type of work your team does. So I’ve done market research. I’ve been a brand strategist. I’ve had the opportunity to do growth marketing. I’ve been a communications person for a little while. No one should hire me for that job. But having the experience means that as I go have the conversations with my team, at least I have some frame of reference for what they do and deep, deep respect.

Bennie 

Right.

Radhika 

So I would encourage anyone who’s interested in marketing to try to take the marketing generalist approach because I think later on it will serve you.

Bennie 

Right. And when we think about it, our profession, one of things that we love about it is it’s perpetually expanding upon itself because what was all the generalists list 10 years ago is even more now. There’ll be even more tomorrow. So as you think about, you know, saying yes, what advice and encouragement would you give to people to say yes? So many parts of your career as we’ve talked about, I’ve noticed the key word, you’ve always kind of said yes. We have the rest of the discussion afterward, but it’s a yes that gets you through.

Radhika 

I would say two things. If an opportunity presents itself, find a way to say yes. Most of these things, my belief, my husband and I were talking about this morning. My belief is that mostly things come around once you have an opportunity. And if you do it and you do it well, it leads to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So be open-minded and find a way to make it work. The second thing I’ll say is, but know your limits.

Bennie

Huh. Okay. Talk a bit about that.

Radhika 

I think that’s really challenging. So someone brought an opportunity to me two days ago and I really want to do it. And so I was sitting and chatting with my husband about like, where would the time come from to do that thing? It seems really cool. Well, the only time would be, I’m brand new in my job, school next year. Yeah, I have a family. The only time would be from my daughter. And that’s not a trade-off I’m going to make.

So I think just being really cognizant of where does the time commitment come from and knowing what you are and are not willing to trade off, like what is your boundary, think is really

Bennie 

Think that’s a really, really powerful point for us in various parts of our careers, right? Whether we’re starting or we’re growing or in executive space in there, knowing what your trade-offs are and what are the things that are not

Radhika 

Yeah, and by the way, I’m not gonna say no to that thing. I’m gonna call them and say, hey, can we talk again in a year? Because I think, why say no?

There’s always, like if we’re lucky, life is long and career is long and there’s always a chance. But if I say no, then the door’s closed and that would make me very.

Bennie

Right. Well, there’s always a space for yes and, right? So we’re open for it with a caveat that we have to do. We have to make some trade -offs or some builds or some requests, but it’s still a yes that gives us open to it. it’s interesting when we say yes in the conversation, the response that we get talking about our consumer behavior, you’re open up for whatever comes next because of giving your positive

Radhika 

You get a much better response even if you say yes, but as opposed to no and, right? The response you get is very different and it’s much more favorable if you can start with yes.

Bennie 

Right. So I’m going to ask a question about just background and context and energy. You get to work in New York City. How does New York City affect your energy as a

Radhika

So full disclosure, I’ve lived in New York City since I was 17 years old. So more than half my life. although I was a consultant and I would physically go somewhere else Monday through Thursday for about six years.

Bennie 

Yes. Yes.

Radhika 

I’ve not really ever worked anywhere else. Because even as a consultant, like, you know you’re based in New York. So I don’t have a good comparator. But what I will say is, any time I’m feeling a little bit tired or a little bit run down, all I have to do is go outside and just, you get lit up by the energy of the city. And that helps so much.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right. Isn’t it amazing to have that? I think about that a lot in my career. I’ve had offices in New York off and on, and I’m always in DC, but that moment for me walking out of Penn Station, coming up from the train and the transformation as a marketer, and you get all of marketing in your face in every way you can imagine of all the energy of creation right.

Radhika

Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s like all the energy of all the people around you help remind you they’re all going and doing their thing. You can go do your thing.

Bennie 

Right, right. Now in that sense, there’s one of the things that we talk about a lot is the noise that’s created, the energy that’s created, the vibration that comes from that space in there. How do you as a marketer break through? What’s thoughts about breaking through such, know, New York is a great example because there’s so much of everything all the time, all at once. How do you find the energy and the creativity to break through.

Radhika 

I think this is all about the right customer. So if you know who your customer is, humans are really only, we perceive the things that are relevant to us. As humans, we block everything else out because we couldn’t possibly take in all the stimuli for things that aren’t relevant. So as a brand, if I know that, basically what I got to know is, well, who is my customer? How do I find them? And what are the messages that will help?

Bennie

Right.

Radhika

And will help to drive relevancy for our brand, for those consumers. The more I can understand that about my customer, the better shot I have at breaking through. And I think it just, it all comes back to understanding who your customer is, understanding how they form opinions, attitudes, and make decisions, and being laser focused on delivering in those moments.

Bennie

Hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s just perfect. Laser focus and delivery in those moments. So if you were to provide any advice or counsel to our folks listening about the upcoming year ahead, we’ve talked a lot about dynamism and change. Anything that you would provide as inspiration for my aspiring marketers listening?

Radhika 

I think you should say yes. So I think there’s something about being really open to both change and opportunity. The world is shifting so much and some of it’s scary, but a lot of it could be. And we got to believe that it will be positive. So I think approaching, whether it’s school, if one is a student, whether it’s your workplace, if one is working with a yes and mindset.

Bennie

Mm-hmm.

Radhika 

As opposed to a no but might bring out some really interesting and exciting opportunities.

Bennie 

Think that’s a wonderful way to close out our conversation today. Being open to saying yes, open up to wonderful opportunities that are unexpected that you may not know that are there, and thinking about that in your work, in your study, in your life, the power of yes. Thank you, my friend, for joining us for this episode of AMAs Marketing Anne. We invite you to explore, check out more of what’s happening at Major League Soccer, check out the club in your town, catch a game. And if you’re looking for more marketing inspiration and insight, always see us at AMA.org. Once again, thank you for joining me. And this has been our episode of AMA’s Marketing / And.